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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 06:59:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
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 Content preview:  "SAE" is a term of art and refers to certain types of what
    we would now call deep structures; in particular, it is not an averaging
   of European languages in any sense. Lojban "tenses" are those of logic, essentially
    Prior's, and it took me a number of pages to demonstrate that they were tenses
    at all as they are very different from those of natural languages (four points
    -- or one repeated four times -- and three arrows). The Hopi failure to come
    up with Lojban (or, indeed, formal logic in its common form) has nothing
   to do with their lack of interest in the project (though I suppose they do
    lacks interest) but to the radically different nature of their language.
   [I should note that, while I regularly express the orthodox view on these
   matters, I am not perfectly sure they are correct, cf. Christianity] [...]
    
 
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"SAE" is a term of art and refers to certain types of what we would now cal=
l deep structures; in particular, it is not an averaging of European langua=
ges in any sense.=A0 Lojban "tenses" are those of logic, essentially Prior'=
s, and it took me a number of pages to demonstrate that they were tenses at=
 all as they are very different from those of natural languages (four point=
s -- or one repeated four times -- and three arrows).=A0 The Hopi failure t=
o come up with Lojban (or, indeed, formal logic in its common form) has not=
hing to do with their lack of interest in the project (though I suppose the=
y do lacks interest) but to the radically different nature of their languag=
e.=A0 [I should note that, while I regularly express the orthodox view on t=
hese matters, I am not perfectly sure they are correct, cf. Christianity]


________________________________
 From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20

On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 10:03:52 John E Clifford wrote:
> The historical roots of logical symbolism in Western culture and language=
s
> is too long to get into here (see Bochenski for some nice discussion) but
> the essential "Europeanness" (not actually, but that idea get fixed with
> "SAE") goes far deeper.=A0 Whether speakers of European languages would h=
ave
> come up with Lojban without formal logic intervening is hard to judge; th=
e
> point is, the Hopi wouldn't have, even with formal logic.

Looking at the list of conlangs, it seems that most are invented by speaker=
s=20
of European languages, but many of the languages are hardly SAE. I don't kn=
ow=20
much about Hopi, but it may simply not be a Hopi thing to do to invent=20
languages. Lojban is definitely not SAE, for reasons I've listed before. In=
=20
particular, the tense system is completely unlike that of the SAE languages=
.

Pierre
--=20
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.

--=20
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
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---334495122-1204376312-1366898395=:56071
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">"SAE" is a term of ar=
t and refers to certain types of what we would now call deep structures; in=
 particular, it is not an averaging of European languages in any sense.&nbs=
p; Lojban "tenses" are those of logic, essentially Prior's, and it took me =
a number of pages to demonstrate that they were tenses at all as they are v=
ery different from those of natural languages (four points -- or one repeat=
ed four times -- and three arrows).&nbsp; The Hopi failure to come up with =
Lojban (or, indeed, formal logic in its common form) has nothing to do with=
 their lack of interest in the project (though I suppose they do lacks inte=
rest) but to the radically different nature of their language.&nbsp; [I sho=
uld note that, while I regularly express the orthodox view on these matters=
, I am not perfectly sure they are correct, cf.
 Christianity]<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=
=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"=
> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-=
size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Pierre Abbat =
&lt;phma@bezitopo.org&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</sp=
an></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=
Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 24, 2013 11:46 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning =
Lojban?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 10:03:52 John E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; The hi=
storical roots of logical symbolism in Western culture and languages<br>&gt=
; is too long to get into here (see Bochenski for some nice discussion) but=
<br>&gt; the essential "Europeanness" (not actually, but that idea get fixe=
d with<br>&gt; "SAE") goes far deeper.&nbsp; Whether speakers of European l=
anguages would have<br>&gt; come up with Lojban without formal logic interv=
ening is hard to judge; the<br>&gt; point is, the Hopi wouldn't have, even =
with formal logic.<br><br>Looking at the list of conlangs, it seems that mo=
st are invented by speakers <br>of European languages, but many of the lang=
uages are hardly SAE. I don't know <br>much about Hopi, but it may simply n=
ot be a Hopi thing to do to invent <br>languages. Lojban is definitely not =
SAE, for reasons I've listed before. In <br>particular, the tense system is=
 completely unlike that of the SAE languages.<br><br>Pierre<br>--
 <br>.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do<br>.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jin=
ga<br>.icu'u la ma'atman.<br><br>-- <br>You received this message because y=
ou are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe fr=
om this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a=
 ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe=
@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this gro=
up, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mai=
lto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this gro=
up at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, v=
isit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </=
div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br />
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