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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:27:42 +0200
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
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Subject: [lojban] A use for {me SUMTI mei}
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The construct {me SUMTI mei} =97 unlike its sibling {me SUMTI moi} =97 does=
=20
not see any use. This is because there does not seem be an obvious,=20
useful interpretation for it.

As a reminder, this is what the {moi} construct means:

me SUMTI moi: x1 is SUMTI's among x2 sorted by rule/relationship x3.

For example:

(1) ta me mi moi [lo stizu]
     "That is mine [my chair]."

I and some others use this regularly.

This interpretation makes sense, because {moi} deals with ordinality,=20
and so you can talk about the SUMTI'th position in a set of things. For=20
{mei}, which is about cardinality, it is unclear what it should mean.=20
Nevertheless, because {me SUMTI moi} is grammatical, so is {me SUMTI=20
mei}, obviously, since both {moi} and {mei} are members of selma'o MOI.

However, today tsani and I discussed a possible use for it, which=20
involves using SUMTI not as a "number", but as a unit.

First of all, we can express {PA mei} in terms of {klani}:

x1 PA mei x2 : x1 me x2 gi'e klani li PA lo se gradu be x2

which means "x1 is among x2 and measures PA counting by x2's unit". For=20
example:

(2) lo va prenu cu so mei lo tadni
     "Those people are nine counting off students."
     "Those people are nine students."

(One might argue that {zilkancu} could be used in place of {klani}, but=20
{klani} is more flexible. After all it's the basic quantity predicate.=20
In any case, this isn't central to the idea.)

Now, our idea for {me SUMTI mei} involves using SUMTI in place of=20
klani3/zilkancu3, as opposed to the quantifier place (klani2). The first=20
approximation was something for something like {lo me lo kabri mei} to=20
mean "a cupful/a cup-like quantity".

Since a {me SUMTI MOI} construct is inherently ad-hoc, there doesn't=20
appear to be a reason to assume that "a cup-like quantity" necessarily=20
refers to the content of a cup as opposed to, say, its surface area or=20
its weight. To account for this contextual vagueness, we could look for=20
a way to introduce a {pe/ne/co'e} into the definition of {me SUMTI mei}=20
if necessary.

Maybe the following is enough:

x1 me SUMTI mei x2 : x1 klani x2 lo se gradu be SUMTI

Also, as {me SUMTI moi} carries a sense of {zo'e noi co'e SUMTI}, so too=20
could {me SUMTI mei} carry a sense of {zo'e noi klani co'e SUMTI} or=20
similar.

This is all very fresh, so some rough parts will likely have to be=20
ironed out and the presentation might seem a bit chaotic, but maybe=20
someone can approve of the general idea.

Finally, some examples:

(3) .au mi te vecnu lo me lo xance mei
     "I would like to buy a handful."

(4) cu'u lo pulji lo zdani cu jelca co'u lo nu lo me lo baktu mei be li=20
100 cu ba'o zilre'o lo fagri
     "According to the police, the house stopped burning after 100=20
bucket-loads of water had been cast on the fire."

(5) lo xabju be lo bi'u nai cmatca cu ta'e kansi'u lo nu bevri lo narge=20
me lo vo xance be lo re prenu be'o poi se tarmi lo julne mei li so'o
     "The people living in that village habitually carry together=20
several heaps of nuts, each heap being of the size of a net that is=20
formed by two people's four hands." (Almost choked on that English)

Sentence (5) tries to demonstrates the kind of case where a -lai lujvo=20
would not easily be able to replace {me SUMTI mei}, which is so useful=20
for ad-hoc situations.

Impact on past usage: None. {me SUMTI mei} has never been used before.=20
This proposal would take a grammatical, but so far nonsensical,=20
production of the grammar and assign to it a useful meaning.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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