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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:38:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
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Don't know about walls and benches.=A0 The four points (axes) are Present, =
Future, Retropresent ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows are Retr=
ospective, Prospective and Immediate, radiating from each axis.=A0 All axes=
 are displacements for Present, all vectors are views from an axis.=A0 No l=
anguage has the whole system intact and purely tense (I couldn't get it int=
o Lojban, alas -- or logic either).=A0 It keeps slopping over into aspects =
and subjunctives (as in most familiar languages).=A0 Logically, the crucial=
 factors here are that different axes have different extensions of "exist" =
and events vectored from an axis involve existents of that axis, while even=
ts at displaced axes may involve things existing then but not at Present (i=
n particular).=A0 All sorts of other restrictions and violations occur, but=
 this is the basic stuff.
From the orthodox chat, the crucial thing about SAE languages is their Freg=
ean semantics, the world consists of things with holes and things to plug t=
he holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated (and generally characterless) in=
dividuals and properties (etc.) that they take on.=A0 This contrasts with l=
anguages which go for properties only that intersect and overlap and absorb=
, and those which simply have processes, and perhaps those which merely hav=
e instantaneous sensations.=A0 The existence of languages of any of these t=
ypes is questionable and the question may well be unintelligible, but witho=
ut it, there is no SWH.


________________________________
 From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 06:59:55 John E Clifford wrote:
> "SAE" is a term of art and refers to certain types of what we would now c=
all
> deep structures; in particular, it is not an averaging of European
> languages in any sense.=A0 Lojban "tenses" are those of logic, essentiall=
y
> Prior's, and it took me a number of pages to demonstrate that they were
> tenses at all as they are very different from those of natural languages
> (four points -- or one repeated four times -- and three arrows).=A0 The H=
opi
> failure to come up with Lojban (or, indeed, formal logic in its common
> form) has nothing to do with their lack of interest in the project (thoug=
h
> I suppose they do lacks interest) but to the radically different nature o=
f
> their language.=A0 [I should note that, while I regularly express the
> orthodox view on these matters, I am not perfectly sure they are correct,
> cf. Christianity]

I know about SAE from Wikipedia=20
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European) and from being at=
=20
least a semi-native speaker of three SAE languages. What features of SAE=20
languages are you talking about? What are the four points and three arrows?=
=20
Are they like the four walls and three benches?

Pierre
--=20
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

--=20
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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Don't know about wall=
s and benches.&nbsp; The four points (axes) are Present, Future, Retroprese=
nt ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows are Retrospective, Prospec=
tive and Immediate, radiating from each axis.&nbsp; All axes are displaceme=
nts for Present, all vectors are views from an axis.&nbsp; No language has =
the whole system intact and purely tense (I couldn't get it into Lojban, al=
as -- or logic either).&nbsp; It keeps slopping over into aspects and subju=
nctives (as in most familiar languages).&nbsp; Logically, the crucial facto=
rs here are that different axes have different extensions of "exist" and ev=
ents vectored from an axis involve existents of that axis, while events at =
displaced axes may involve things existing then but not at Present (in part=
icular).&nbsp; All sorts of other restrictions and violations occur,
 but this is the basic stuff.<br>From the orthodox chat, the crucial thing =
about SAE languages is their Fregean semantics, the world consists of thing=
s with holes and things to plug the holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated=
 (and generally characterless) individuals and properties (etc.) that they =
take on.&nbsp; This contrasts with languages which go for properties only t=
hat intersect and overlap and absorb, and those which simply have processes=
, and perhaps those which merely have instantaneous sensations.&nbsp; The e=
xistence of languages of any of these types is questionable and the questio=
n may well be unintelligible, but without it, there is no SWH.<br><div><spa=
n><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new ro=
man, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: =
times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr=
"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span
 style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Pierre Abbat &lt;phma@bezitop=
o.org&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@g=
ooglegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>=
 Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:10 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;=
">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?<br> </fon=
t> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
On Thursday, April 25, 2013 06:59:55 John E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; "SAE" i=
s a term of art and refers to certain types of what we would now call<br>&g=
t; deep structures; in particular, it is not an averaging of European<br>&g=
t; languages in any sense.&nbsp; Lojban "tenses" are those of logic, essent=
ially<br>&gt; Prior's, and it took me a number of pages to demonstrate that=
 they were<br>&gt; tenses at all as they are very different from those of n=
atural languages<br>&gt; (four points -- or one repeated four times -- and =
three arrows).&nbsp; The Hopi<br>&gt; failure to come up with Lojban (or, i=
ndeed, formal logic in its common<br>&gt; form) has nothing to do with thei=
r lack of interest in the project (though<br>&gt; I suppose they do lacks i=
nterest) but to the radically different nature of<br>&gt; their language.&n=
bsp; [I should note that, while I regularly express the<br>&gt; orthodox vi=
ew on these matters, I am not perfectly sure they are
 correct,<br>&gt; cf. Christianity]<br><br>I know about SAE from Wikipedia =
<br>(<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European</a>=
) and from being at <br>least a semi-native speaker of three SAE languages.=
 What features of SAE <br>languages are you talking about? What are the fou=
r points and three arrows? <br>Are they like the four walls and three bench=
es?<br><br>Pierre<br>-- <br>I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in B=
lack when I'm in Wales.<br><br>-- <br>You received this message because you=
 are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from=
 this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a y=
mailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@g=
ooglegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group=
, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com"
 href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Vi=
sit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For mor=
e options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><=
br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
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n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
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">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

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