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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:49:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
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Retrofuture is the past version of the future; the structural forms often e=
nd up being used for some kind of subjunctive: Eng; "would" =3D "will" + -D=
.=A0 The basic tense is present (the only "real" one).=A0 This is duplicate=
d to the future (the affectable one), then this pair is duplicated in the p=
ast ("retro") for reporting on previous presents.=A0 Arrows related events =
to axes, so talk about past, present and future events which involve axial =
existents and are relevant to the axis.=A0 There do not seem to be universa=
l patterns of spatial tenses (indeed, the notion is strictly nonsensical, s=
ince there is no time in spatial relations=A0 -- this side of building rela=
tivity).=A0=20
I, alas, don't know Hebrew, so I can't say what its worldview is like.=A0 T=
he teeinsy bit I've had explained to me looks SAE, however, just not Europe=
an.
No, the only elements of the second sort of languages are properties, which=
 overlap [the wrong word here, but I can't remember the right one] or not i=
n varying degrees (sorry, they changed the rules on relative clauses on me =
between high school and now).=A0 So the classic Logic 1 sentence would be "=
Mortality humanity" with maybe some minor hook in there (but I don't know a=
ny such languages so don't quite know how it goes).=A0=20
.


________________________________
 From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:38:51 John E Clifford wrote:
> Don't know about walls and benches.=A0 The four points (axes) are Present=
,
> Future, Retropresent ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows are
> Retrospective, Prospective and Immediate, radiating from each axis.=A0 Al=
l
> axes are displacements for Present, all vectors are views from an axis.=
=A0 No
> language has the whole system intact and purely tense (I couldn't get it
> into Lojban, alas -- or logic either).=A0 It keeps slopping over into asp=
ects
> and subjunctives (as in most familiar languages).=A0 Logically, the cruci=
al
> factors here are that different axes have different extensions of "exist"
> and events vectored from an axis involve existents of that axis, while
> events at displaced axes may involve things existing then but not at
> Present (in particular).=A0 All sorts of other restrictions and violation=
s
> occur, but this is the basic stuff.

How is retrofuture different from past? What is "retropresent" supposed to=
=20
mean? What do the arrows do? What about spatial tenses?

> From the orthodox chat, the crucial thing about SAE languages is their
> Fregean semantics, the world consists of things with holes and things to
> plug the holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated (and generally
> characterless) individuals and properties (etc.) that they take on.=A0 Th=
is
> contrasts with languages which go for properties only that intersect and
> overlap and absorb, and those which simply have processes, and perhaps
> those which merely have instantaneous sensations.=A0 The existence of
> languages of any of these types is questionable and the question may well
> be unintelligible, but without it, there is no SWH.

What is the world of Hebrew like? That's the only non-SAE natlang that I kn=
ow=20
a fair bit of.

By "properties only that intersect ..." do you mean "lo ckaji poi po'o kruc=
a=20
..."? The only restriction on the properties is that they intersect and=20
overlap and absorb? I would not normally put "only" there, and it took me a=
=20
while to figure out what it means.

Pierre
--=20
lo ponse be lo mruli ku po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko

--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Retrofuture is the pa=
st version of the future; the structural forms often end up being used for =
some kind of subjunctive: Eng; "would" =3D "will" + -D.&nbsp; The basic ten=
se is present (the only "real" one).&nbsp; This is duplicated to the future=
 (the affectable one), then this pair is duplicated in the past ("retro") f=
or reporting on previous presents.&nbsp; Arrows related events to axes, so =
talk about past, present and future events which involve axial existents an=
d are relevant to the axis.&nbsp; There do not seem to be universal pattern=
s of spatial tenses (indeed, the notion is strictly nonsensical, since ther=
e is no time in spatial relations&nbsp; -- this side of building relativity=
).&nbsp; <br>I, alas, don't know Hebrew, so I can't say what its worldview =
is like.&nbsp; The teeinsy bit I've had explained to me looks SAE,
 however, just not European.<br>No, the only elements of the second sort of=
 languages are properties, which overlap [the wrong word here, but I can't =
remember the right one] or not in varying degrees (sorry, they changed the =
rules on relative clauses on me between high school and now).&nbsp; So the =
classic Logic 1 sentence would be "Mortality humanity" with maybe some mino=
r hook in there (but I don't know any such languages so don't quite know ho=
w it goes).&nbsp; <br>.<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <di=
v style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif=
; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial=
" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Pierre =
Abbat &lt;phma@bezitopo.org&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">T=
o:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:
 bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 6:53 PM<br> <b><span styl=
e=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit lea=
rning Lojban?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
On Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:38:51 John E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; Don't k=
now about walls and benches.&nbsp; The four points (axes) are Present,<br>&=
gt; Future, Retropresent ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows are<=
br>&gt; Retrospective, Prospective and Immediate, radiating from each axis.=
&nbsp; All<br>&gt; axes are displacements for Present, all vectors are view=
s from an axis.&nbsp; No<br>&gt; language has the whole system intact and p=
urely tense (I couldn't get it<br>&gt; into Lojban, alas -- or logic either=
).&nbsp; It keeps slopping over into aspects<br>&gt; and subjunctives (as i=
n most familiar languages).&nbsp; Logically, the crucial<br>&gt; factors he=
re are that different axes have different extensions of "exist"<br>&gt; and=
 events vectored from an axis involve existents of that axis, while<br>&gt;=
 events at displaced axes may involve things existing then but not at<br>&g=
t; Present (in particular).&nbsp; All sorts of other restrictions
 and violations<br>&gt; occur, but this is the basic stuff.<br><br>How is r=
etrofuture different from past? What is "retropresent" supposed to <br>mean=
? What do the arrows do? What about spatial tenses?<br><br>&gt; From the or=
thodox chat, the crucial thing about SAE languages is their<br>&gt; Fregean=
 semantics, the world consists of things with holes and things to<br>&gt; p=
lug the holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated (and generally<br>&gt; char=
acterless) individuals and properties (etc.) that they take on.&nbsp; This<=
br>&gt; contrasts with languages which go for properties only that intersec=
t and<br>&gt; overlap and absorb, and those which simply have processes, an=
d perhaps<br>&gt; those which merely have instantaneous sensations.&nbsp; T=
he existence of<br>&gt; languages of any of these types is questionable and=
 the question may well<br>&gt; be unintelligible, but without it, there is =
no SWH.<br><br>What is the world of Hebrew like? That's the only
 non-SAE natlang that I know <br>a fair bit of.<br><br>By "properties only =
that intersect ..." do you mean "lo ckaji poi po'o kruca <br>..."? The only=
 restriction on the properties is that they intersect and <br>overlap and a=
bsorb? I would not normally put "only" there, and it took me a <br>while to=
 figure out what it means.<br><br>Pierre<br>-- <br>lo ponse be lo mruli ku =
po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko<br><br>-- <br>You received this message be=
cause you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubsc=
ribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lo=
jban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsu=
bscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to t=
his group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=
=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit t=
his group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more
 options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=
=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><b=
r></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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