Received: from mail-gh0-f185.google.com ([209.85.160.185]:38640) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UVahi-0004Dn-SN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:56:23 -0700 Received: by mail-gh0-f185.google.com with SMTP id z17sf1173778ghb.2 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:56:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:cc:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=jy+FxW9pHv8KsFCBUjNXfn4QxuLDNRv/+NAcB1GlwZc=; b=MvNkvgTv4NYoGTQB3eP5p/uKa7hRysK5eTQUvhY7tJbwNNZTg+IcpZcWwMU0TR2doz FDNm4Ff2hvBBo1WQYxBfaosMjTjJkvhGScLKLWnJXcU1JYccae1Lhrl3RzxsKmzm4GE8 Hk8FGNJmKhLf6FT7UdkRfd1eJsF2waNC6MfyzVxf9UtaEmEGmSVMTebqDaC7BNqnaGLT /f0rdDnUT0V+9SIFXa25D8MXZoEmayQTLAEWU1B5OBECabwWlhb1P6HK/ekjYbNH1ybc zqtAxT5Yu9yp0WTQoF/L57pM2ebmjiSVY0Jhog4dHS/+jeA8LbGGYuvjxFXvNXi7uSu8 iyIg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:cc:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=jy+FxW9pHv8KsFCBUjNXfn4QxuLDNRv/+NAcB1GlwZc=; b=UJHZUFx9HepPHkKNK6rNH1yZn8HS4/Blt/ZdcSE0N1unCjXaPHI8UKdNOCoD4HQQus Dy6cGOuVhHgZflnP72b7TziagISLUHHqE8NN2qeTaOqVaPDxRdiN0Nw6p0VGN/OUda4V iHaWIvGHpKcaM9VWoujwMCtaBbMyIMMsk5bhw+O1Okv406TBH856Gz9NgRKyr4QpgNN7 7OCN6AnG86Ryxh/vNP+muGyz3K1kv25BzSvxm77FCjFPPSz6ZtUG//9pwZyn4YNw4FWn svGATjTmQThciaSa3hvpm2kznNb7h7JMJ8HanBADdG9MI6/5bbGYRRj4hXXRpgvn7pfK RtzQ== X-Received: by 10.49.0.48 with SMTP id 16mr3812783qeb.6.1366952168405; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.133.4 with SMTP id oy4ls557780qeb.73.gmail; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.130.7 with SMTP id oa7mr3867253qeb.12.1366952167133; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:56:06 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: John E Clifford Message-Id: <9de6cb6b-de8a-46bd-82fa-f9ba6aeb6493@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <1366911531.3707.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <2623322.AlfTFKHnKh@caracal> <1366898395.56071.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <97641222.QcRlsCuCi0@caracal> <1366911531.3707.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_509_20699604.1366952166290" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_509_20699604.1366952166290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:38:51 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > Don't know about walls and benches. The four points (axes) are Present, > Future, Retropresent ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows are > Retrospective, Prospective and Immediate, radiating from each axis. All > axes are displacements for Present, all vectors are views from an axis. No > language has the whole system intact and purely tense (I couldn't get it > into Lojban, alas -- or logic either). It keeps slopping over into aspects > and subjunctives (as in most familiar languages). Logically, the crucial > factors here are that different axes have different extensions of "exist" > and events vectored from an axis involve existents of that axis, while > events at displaced axes may involve things existing then but not at > Present (in particular). All sorts of other restrictions and violations > occur, but this is the basic stuff. > From the orthodox chat, the crucial thing about SAE languages is their > Fregean semantics, the world consists of things with holes and things to > plug the holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated (and generally > characterless) individuals and properties (etc.) that they take on. This > contrasts with languages which go for properties only that intersect and > overlap and absorb, and those which simply have processes, and perhaps > those which merely have instantaneous sensations. The existence of > languages of any of these types is questionable and the question may well > be unintelligible, but without it, there is no SWH. > .au mi jimpe da la'edi'u vau u'i > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Pierre Abbat > > *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:10 PM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? > > On Thursday, April 25, 2013 06:59:55 John E Clifford wrote: > > "SAE" is a term of art and refers to certain types of what we would now > call > > deep structures; in particular, it is not an averaging of European > > languages in any sense. Lojban "tenses" are those of logic, essentially > > Prior's, and it took me a number of pages to demonstrate that they were > > tenses at all as they are very different from those of natural languages > > (four points -- or one repeated four times -- and three arrows). The > Hopi > > failure to come up with Lojban (or, indeed, formal logic in its common > > form) has nothing to do with their lack of interest in the project > (though > > I suppose they do lacks interest) but to the radically different nature > of > > their language. [I should note that, while I regularly express the > > orthodox view on these matters, I am not perfectly sure they are correct, > > cf. Christianity] > > I know about SAE from Wikipedia > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European) and from being > at > least a semi-native speaker of three SAE languages. What features of SAE > languages are you talking about? What are the four points and three > arrows? > Are they like the four walls and three benches? > > Pierre > -- > I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_509_20699604.1366952166290 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:38:51 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Don't know about walls and benches.  The four points (axes) are = Present, Future, Retropresent ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows= are Retrospective, Prospective and Immediate, radiating from each axis.&nb= sp; All axes are displacements for Present, all vectors are views from an a= xis.  No language has the whole system intact and purely tense (I coul= dn't get it into Lojban, alas -- or logic either).  It keeps slopping = over into aspects and subjunctives (as in most familiar languages).  L= ogically, the crucial factors here are that different axes have different e= xtensions of "exist" and events vectored from an axis involve existents of = that axis, while events at displaced axes may involve things existing then = but not at Present (in particular).  All sorts of other restrictions a= nd violations occur, but this is the basic stuff.
From the orthodox chat, the crucial thing = about SAE languages is their Fregean semantics, the world consists of thing= s with holes and things to plug the holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated= (and generally characterless) individuals and properties (etc.) that they = take on.  This contrasts with languages which go for properties only t= hat intersect and overlap and absorb, and those which simply have processes= , and perhaps those which merely have instantaneous sensations.  The e= xistence of languages of any of these types is questionable and the questio= n may well be unintelligible, but without it, there is no SWH.


.au mi jimpe da la'edi'u= vau u'i 


=
From: Pierre Abbat <= ph...@bezitopo.org>
To= : loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit= learning Lojban?

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 06:59:55 John E Clifford wrote:
> "SAE" i= s a term of art and refers to certain types of what we would now call
&g= t; deep structures; in particular, it is not an averaging of European
&g= t; languages in any sense.  Lojban "tenses" are those of logic, essent= ially
> Prior's, and it took me a number of pages to demonstrate that= they were
> tenses at all as they are very different from those of n= atural languages
> (four points -- or one repeated four times -- and = three arrows).  The Hopi
> failure to come up with Lojban (or, i= ndeed, formal logic in its common
> form) has nothing to do with thei= r lack of interest in the project (though
> I suppose they do lacks i= nterest) but to the radically different nature of
> their language.&n= bsp; [I should note that, while I regularly express the
> orthodox vi= ew on these matters, I am not perfectly sure they are correct,
> cf. Christianity]

I know about SAE from Wikipedia =
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_Europea= n) and from being at
least a semi-native speaker of three SAE = languages. What features of SAE
languages are you talking about? What a= re the four points and three arrows?
Are they like the four walls and t= hree benches?

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Swede= n and in Black when I'm in Wales.

--
You received this message b= ecause you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubs= cribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to l= ojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, s= end email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at htt= p://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, v= isit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.




--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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