Received: from mail-vb0-f59.google.com ([209.85.212.59]:57558) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UVjyR-0008LR-4B for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:50:19 -0700 Received: by mail-vb0-f59.google.com with SMTP id x13sf970904vbb.24 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:50:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:cc:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9va1T5VSQLN/GB+3adSFGJuth6N3/qALV511BM7F1eM=; b=B1Hbgu0KSNPb8Ybinkho0xIozXgVxwobZF75XGxExD13VTAo2S6vWr+hCm2YDFLp7k gWvTr7MzKQWcibDIMj43sO1nelgC15O59EQYBxfdCwP2vSjr4banBP13OBtjj74tkNe/ VxJxryEf9muGtf5KsjE0ijXbSeupOIimawHFtb3j3dk26d/Ed/A1LH8D+2jRsqu365dA TB5uINdYulIybh8hRz0mLH4/MZUvZt+68hT2iEysIeDxe9pqVl1nhb434Qkmjct4sTs3 Q4Soa6ctyoTNaLjFdJJpIl4HWi3zVVbZod8/2IuGaJ1BbaPK+pH2pgEZqScF5rTUZzw3 dABw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:cc:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9va1T5VSQLN/GB+3adSFGJuth6N3/qALV511BM7F1eM=; b=nJG1YdMQI23oO1Y+gxHiueIMm4jcQlgq2eTr6AoUrSTLm0n2N7MIxB6Uxm4DBBzw2Z dxQz9vRAOFYzjEALpjPpQlM4PMP8R291+DBJreSM8GkRxwf7zaEW6hKwDw/zhIAhM+wX +/Mv5vYdH1vvyqqw65DBL/Ab+6++3NSqFpgHEFICpxekEjgwW2ZfcAHa8LahTAa08/aE KXfWZq/HuAgOyU5f57jlF+ZMH4WiY5KD+UbeaMw/esIPIoCDTyEk0KKSGfl7l6n6WIZk qX9KwCqN3tTZP4V88X+sNLORcR/I68LfLIAyelkS3RilbW6HXT0lMQHFml3ruTy33ls6 YeQQ== X-Received: by 10.182.65.194 with SMTP id z2mr603431obs.37.1366987800546; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:50:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.99.200 with SMTP id es8ls310655obb.33.gmail; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:49:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.104.228 with SMTP id gh4mr597803obb.27.1366987797914; Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:49:56 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: John E Clifford Message-Id: <56d2e177-400d-4bce-85d1-67ac807a7020@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <1366940941.12930.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <97641222.QcRlsCuCi0@caracal> <1366911531.3707.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <6738471.dyVTdTpTmV@caracal> <1366940941.12930.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_233_28698861.1366987796292" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_233_28698861.1366987796292 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, April 26, 2013 5:49:01 AM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > Retrofuture is the past version of the future; the structural forms often > end up being used for some kind of subjunctive: Eng; "would" = "will" + > -D. The basic tense is present (the only "real" one). This is duplicated > to the future (the affectable one), then this pair is duplicated in the > past ("retro") for reporting on previous presents. Arrows related events > to axes, so talk about past, present and future events which involve axial > existents and are relevant to the axis. There do not seem to be universal > patterns of spatial tenses (indeed, the notion is strictly nonsensical, > since there is no time in spatial relations -- this side of building > relativity). > I, alas, don't know Hebrew, so I can't say what its worldview is like. > The teeinsy bit I've had explained to me looks SAE, however, just not > European. > No, the only elements of the second sort of languages are properties, > which overlap [the wrong word here, but I can't remember the right one] or > not in varying degrees (sorry, they changed the rules on relative clauses > on me between high school and now). So the classic Logic 1 sentence would > be "Mortality humanity" with maybe some minor hook in there (but I don't > know any such languages so don't quite know how it goes). > Can you provide a link to any descriptions of such languages with examples with glosses? Because the only example "Mortality humanity" makes no sense. How are two words connected to each other? Like in tanru? Then it's just {submorsi subremna}. . > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Pierre Abbat > > *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 6:53 PM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? > > On Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:38:51 John E Clifford wrote: > > Don't know about walls and benches. The four points (axes) are Present, > > Future, Retropresent ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows are > > Retrospective, Prospective and Immediate, radiating from each axis. All > > axes are displacements for Present, all vectors are views from an axis. > No > > language has the whole system intact and purely tense (I couldn't get it > > into Lojban, alas -- or logic either). It keeps slopping over into > aspects > > and subjunctives (as in most familiar languages). Logically, the crucial > > factors here are that different axes have different extensions of "exist" > > and events vectored from an axis involve existents of that axis, while > > events at displaced axes may involve things existing then but not at > > Present (in particular). All sorts of other restrictions and violations > > occur, but this is the basic stuff. > > How is retrofuture different from past? What is "retropresent" supposed to > mean? What do the arrows do? What about spatial tenses? > > > From the orthodox chat, the crucial thing about SAE languages is their > > Fregean semantics, the world consists of things with holes and things to > > plug the holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated (and generally > > characterless) individuals and properties (etc.) that they take on. This > > contrasts with languages which go for properties only that intersect and > > overlap and absorb, and those which simply have processes, and perhaps > > those which merely have instantaneous sensations. The existence of > > languages of any of these types is questionable and the question may well > > be unintelligible, but without it, there is no SWH. > > What is the world of Hebrew like? That's the only non-SAE natlang that I > know > a fair bit of. > > By "properties only that intersect ..." do you mean "lo ckaji poi po'o > kruca > ..."? The only restriction on the properties is that they intersect and > overlap and absorb? I would not normally put "only" there, and it took me > a > while to figure out what it means. > > Pierre > -- > lo ponse be lo mruli ku po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsub...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_233_28698861.1366987796292 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, April 26, 2013 5:49:01 AM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Retrofuture is the past version of the future; the structural forms oft= en end up being used for some kind of subjunctive: Eng; "would" =3D "will" = + -D.  The basic tense is present (the only "real" one).  This is= duplicated to the future (the affectable one), then this pair is duplicate= d in the past ("retro") for reporting on previous presents.  Arrows re= lated events to axes, so talk about past, present and future events which i= nvolve axial existents and are relevant to the axis.  There do not see= m to be universal patterns of spatial tenses (indeed, the notion is strictl= y nonsensical, since there is no time in spatial relations  -- this si= de of building relativity). 
I, alas, don't know Hebrew, so I can'= t say what its worldview is like.  The teeinsy bit I've had explained = to me looks SAE, however, just not European.
No, the only elements of the second sort of= languages are properties, which overlap [the wrong word here, but I can't = remember the right one] or not in varying degrees (sorry, they changed the = rules on relative clauses on me between high school and now).  So the = classic Logic 1 sentence would be "Mortality humanity" with maybe some mino= r hook in there (but I don't know any such languages so don't quite know ho= w it goes). 


Can you provide a link to any descriptions of such languages with ex= amples with glosses? Because the only example "Mortality humanity" makes no= sense.
How are two words connected to each other? Like in tanru?= Then it's just {submorsi subremna}.

.
=


From: Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo.org&g= t;
To: loj...@goog= legroups.com
Sent: = Thursday, April 25, 2013 6:53 PM
Su= bject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
 <= /div>

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:38:51 John E Clifford wrote:
> Don't k= now about walls and benches.  The four points (axes) are Present,
&= gt; Future, Retropresent ("Past") and Retrofuture and the three arrows are<= br>> Retrospective, Prospective and Immediate, radiating from each axis.=   All
> axes are displacements for Present, all vectors are view= s from an axis.  No
> language has the whole system intact and p= urely tense (I couldn't get it
> into Lojban, alas -- or logic either= ).  It keeps slopping over into aspects
> and subjunctives (as i= n most familiar languages).  Logically, the crucial
> factors he= re are that different axes have different extensions of "exist"
> and= events vectored from an axis involve existents of that axis, while
>= events at displaced axes may involve things existing then but not at
&g= t; Present (in particular).  All sorts of other restrictions and violations
> occur, but this is the basic stuff.

How is r= etrofuture different from past? What is "retropresent" supposed to
mean= ? What do the arrows do? What about spatial tenses?

> From the or= thodox chat, the crucial thing about SAE languages is their
> Fregean= semantics, the world consists of things with holes and things to
> p= lug the holes, giving a metaphysics of isolated (and generally
> char= acterless) individuals and properties (etc.) that they take on.  This<= br>> contrasts with languages which go for properties only that intersec= t and
> overlap and absorb, and those which simply have processes, an= d perhaps
> those which merely have instantaneous sensations.  T= he existence of
> languages of any of these types is questionable and= the question may well
> be unintelligible, but without it, there is = no SWH.

What is the world of Hebrew like? That's the only non-SAE natlang that I know
a fair bit of.

By "properties only = that intersect ..." do you mean "lo ckaji poi po'o kruca
..."? The only= restriction on the properties is that they intersect and
overlap and a= bsorb? I would not normally put "only" there, and it took me a
while to= figure out what it means.

Pierre
--
lo ponse be lo mruli ku = po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko

--
You received this message be= cause you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubsc= ribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lo= jban+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, se= nd email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= ://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


<= br>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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