Received: from mail-oa0-f57.google.com ([209.85.219.57]:43784) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UW5nU-0000D8-OS for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:22 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f57.google.com with SMTP id o17sf1582828oag.22 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=9zanUTY9KedikNtZXBWNaBDG9sQuE3wrcqAsskHgfF0=; b=w0o+2YLrCcvVSXvar44vEyxE8RdGVwC/ZsRqBQJtMOkmBRnkbo/rLvIOS7d32ApuFd q3LewN+wNpcpcZg/m9SxOF9YKvX8GKcCGR+v/XjFg5w6NbTQxZBB5RdnKOxYQ4G3PlFo dfvAhhM3sYzQbQ9GuJBNp7QyZ3JHw30m74zSGCerpVhXMybKwvUH0IJ5HTR6TDIhWRDY ruk+p837RAcEN+5tQcC/0aEHzsY+bWiihjkBt3hFkbQvNBJPnMPF+TCvAwvdaXD4LHbk I18/fx6UfaMLI83m84Tnf2+clC/vklPSvxti+ZPZkabZqJKlsMxFEhe/MUd4/Re6ZO3v ZfDQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=9zanUTY9KedikNtZXBWNaBDG9sQuE3wrcqAsskHgfF0=; b=QkGaTThbW8kcFbFaTjR8QXKHOe0f7C/TrJlls7VOCY0N46hHCjOm1vhiKxB5uAIIaH iE6Esqpw2IRlE1lKtd3LBOwvTJ8Xkf9bUaRvNAnzTjdWcJJygz6jzIsTzGWMQRfMLTeN mrwxAPR7SoqC2EyoM9nLF5QvIsbp4IvngSVz4W6Gj37RvxlKJqX4FRl+en1rDoofc93l H1CcYMiTg0pooy5GPodwKXnlZ3mwtMFKzsVhlwZZnP+Sy/j6nkC8/mUFnvsQi5VgL9j3 /F+CBJTRLwaHl5C38hV8H5Wm90anUTgpicNx33cO07ObuAFH6wGTJP2tiCSIbH+D/b0c oYQQ== X-Received: by 10.49.108.229 with SMTP id hn5mr4107975qeb.14.1367071690596; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.127.230 with SMTP id nj6ls2291625qeb.87.gmail; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.202.41 with SMTP id kf9mr3031879vec.11.1367071689588; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f179.google.com (mail-vc0-f179.google.com [209.85.220.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e9si947371vdi.2.2013.04.27.07.08.09 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.179; Received: by mail-vc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id hz10so1924269vcb.24 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.243.196 with SMTP id xa4mr25905028vdc.22.1367071689389; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.50.147 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1c52c3bc-3922-4e6b-bff0-60cfd57fd75b@googlegroups.com> References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <97641222.QcRlsCuCi0@caracal> <1366911531.3707.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <6738471.dyVTdTpTmV@caracal> <1366940941.12930.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <56d2e177-400d-4bce-85d1-67ac807a7020@googlegroups.com> <963172bd-e9a0-4beb-89cf-d29840b877c1@googlegroups.com> <1c52c3bc-3922-4e6b-bff0-60cfd57fd75b@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 11:08:09 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1c4766df8e804db582e69 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c1c4766df8e804db582e69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, la gleki wrot= e: > > On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki wrote: >>> >>> On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> There's one language I know of that fits that description: the languag= e >>>> of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See http://en.wikipedia.org/**wi= ** >>>> ki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_**Ter**tius or >>>> read the full story here: http://art.yale.edu/**file** >>>> _columns/0000/0066/borges.**pdf >>>> >>> >>> Damn it. It has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is >>> just {ca'o lunra} because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see = much >>> difference from "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lesson= s. >>> >> >> "It mooned" is from the languages of the southern hemisphere: >> >> "The preceding applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere. In >> those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very >> little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the verb, but >> the >> monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by an accumulation of >> adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on dark= " >> or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combination. In the >> example selected the mass of adjectives refers to a real object, but thi= s >> is >> purely fortuitous." >> > > Quote: units are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosyllabic suffixes or prefixe= s > which have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a Tl=F6nic equivalent of "= The > moon rose above the water": hl=F6r u fang axaxaxas ml=F6, meaning literal= ly > "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".> > Yes, as the story says, that applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. What's your point? As for "pale-orange-of-the-sky" i can do that with tanru or lujvo. And btw > it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might do, and there i= s > also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the same kind of > problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube). > > So again I can't see any problems with expressing that even in English. > Indeed it's just "pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with a fixed meaning. > What's wrong? > > What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's "languages which go for properties only", "the only elements of the second sort of languages are properties". I just cited the only example of such languages I know of. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c1c4766df8e804db582e69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.n= ame@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:= 55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
=A0
There's one language I know of that fits that description: the lan= guage of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See=A0http://en= .wikipedia.org/wiki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Ter= tius=A0or read the full story here:=A0http://art.yale.edu/<= /u>file_columns/0000/0066/borges.pdf

Damn it. It = has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is just {c= a'o lunra} because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see muc= h difference from "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the= Wave lessons.

"It mooned" is from the language= s of the southern hemisphere:

"The prece= ding applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere. In=A0
those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very=A0<= /div>
little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the ver= b, but the=A0
monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by an ac= cumulation of=A0
adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round a= iry-light on dark"=A0
or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" = or any other such combination. In the=A0
example selected the mas= s of adjectives refers to a real object, but this is=A0
purely fortuitous."

Quote: <One of the imagined languages of Tl= =F6n lacks nouns. Its central units are "impersonal verbs qualified by= monosyllabic suffixes or prefixes which have the force of adverbs." B= orges lists a Tl=F6nic equivalent of "The moon rose above the water&qu= ot;: hl=F6r u fang axaxaxas ml=F6, meaning literally "Upward behind th= e onstreaming it mooned".>

Yes, as the story says, that applies= to the languages of the southern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. What's your poi= nt?


As for=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky" =A0i can do that with tanr= u or lujvo. And btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil= might do, and there is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to= the same kind of problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on you= tube).

So again I can't see any problems with expressing t= hat even in English. Indeed it's just=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky&qu= ot; may be with a fixed meaning. What's wrong?


What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's &quo= t;languages which go for properties only", &q= uot;the only elements of the second sort of= languages are properties". I just cited the only example of such lang= uages I know of.

=
mu'o mi'e= xorxes

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