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Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 08:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
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The fact that you *can* do something in Lojban=A0 is not terribly important=
; the orange-in-the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful=
.=A0 But it wouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which=
 bears it.=A0 The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages general=
ly is that descent doesn't happen.=A0 One of the roughest tests for SWH is =
Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE language to all appearances yet used to express =
philosophies across the range from Aristotelian to Platonic and beyond to p=
ure property and pure process and even instantaneous sense-data forms.=A0 O=
f course, it usually fails in the details, but it goes an awful long way (a=
s trying to translate some Navya-Nyaya treatises showed me -- dammit, where=
's the effing subject?).=A0=20

aUI, also thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (worse than=
 toki pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses practically fr=
om the get-go.=A0 But that has nothing to do with the situation we're discu=
ssing. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that it is just Lo=
jban gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man or beast and=
 a few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons.=A0 Again, not obviousl=
y relevant here.


________________________________
 From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20


On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wro=
te:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>>>=A0
>>>>
>>>>There's one language I know of that fits that description: the language=
 of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See=A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T=
l%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius=A0or read the full story here:=A0http://art.=
yale.edu/file_columns/0000/0066/borges.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>Damn it. It has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is ju=
st {ca'o lunra} because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much d=
ifference from "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons.
>>
>>
>>"It mooned" is from the languages of the southern hemisphere:
>>
>>
>>"The preceding applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere. In=A0
>>those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very=A0
>>little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the verb, but t=
he=A0
>>monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by an accumulation of=A0
>>adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on dark"=
=A0
>>or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combination. In the=A0
>>example selected the mass of adjectives refers to a real object, but this=
 is=A0
>>purely fortuitous."
>
>
>Quote: <One of the imagined languages of Tl=F6n lacks nouns. Its central u=
nits are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosyllabic suffixes or prefixes w=
hich have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a Tl=F6nic equivalent of "The=
 moon rose above the water": hl=F6r u fang axaxaxas ml=F6, meaning literall=
y "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".>

Yes, as the story says, that applies to the languages of the southern hemis=
phere of Tl=F6n. What's your point?


As for=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky" =A0i can do that with tanru or lujvo. And=
 btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might do, and ther=
e is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the same kind of p=
roblems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube).
>
>
>So again I can't see any problems with expressing that even in English. In=
deed it's just=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with a fixed meaning. What=
's wrong?

What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's "languages which g=
o for properties only", "the only elements of the second sort of languages =
are properties". I just cited the only example of such languages I know of.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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---6906265-1656710987-1367074898=:90512
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>The fact t=
hat you *can* do something in Lojban&nbsp; is not terribly important; the o=
range-in-the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful.&nbsp;=
 But it wouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which bea=
rs it.&nbsp; The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages generall=
y is that descent doesn't happen.&nbsp; One of the roughest tests for SWH i=
s Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE language to all appearances yet used to expres=
s philosophies across the range from Aristotelian to Platonic and beyond to=
 pure property and pure process and even instantaneous sense-data forms.&nb=
sp; Of course, it usually fails in the details, but it goes an awful long w=
ay (as trying to translate some Navya-Nyaya treatises showed me -- dammit, =
where's the effing subject?).&nbsp; <br></span></div><div
 style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: times new roma=
n,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"=
><span>aUI, also thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (wor=
se than toki pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses practic=
ally from the get-go.&nbsp; But that has nothing to do with the situation w=
e're discussing. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that it =
is just Lojban gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man or=
 beast and a few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons.&nbsp; Again,=
 not obviously relevant here.<br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=
=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"=
> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-=
size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jorge Llamb=
=EDas
 &lt;jjllambias@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:=
</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bol=
d;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:08 AM<br> <b><span style=3D=
"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit learnin=
g Lojban?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv691421561"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"yiv691421561gma=
il_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 27, 20=
13 at 10:50 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:gle=
ki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
lockquote class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-sty=
le:solid;padding-left:1ex;">
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:<div><div class=
=3D"yiv691421561h5"><blockquote class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 27=
, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofol=
low">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"yiv691=
421561gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;=
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex=
;">
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:<div>
<div><blockquote class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;<br><div><div cla=
ss=3D"yiv691421561gmail_quote">
<div>There's one language I know of that fits that description: the languag=
e of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See&nbsp;http://en.wikipedia.org/wi=
ki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius&nbsp;or read the full story here:&nbsp;h=
ttp://art.yale.edu/file_columns/0000/0066/borges.pdf</div>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>Damn it. It =
has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is just {ca'o lunra}=
 because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much difference from =
"it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons.</div>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div>"It mooned" is from the languages of the s=
outhern hemisphere:</div><div><br></div><div><div>"The preceding applies to=
 the languages of the southern hemisphere. In&nbsp;</div>
<div>those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very&nbs=
p;</div><div>little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the =
verb, but the&nbsp;</div><div>monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by=
 an accumulation of&nbsp;</div>

<div>adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on da=
rk"&nbsp;</div><div>or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combinati=
on. In the&nbsp;</div><div>example selected the mass of adjectives refers t=
o a real object, but this is&nbsp;</div>

<div>purely fortuitous."</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div></div></div><div>Quote: &lt;One of the imagined languages of Tl=F6n =
lacks nouns. Its central units are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosylla=
bic suffixes or prefixes which have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a T=
l=F6nic equivalent of "The moon rose above the water": hl=F6r u fang axaxax=
as ml=F6, meaning literally "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".&gt;<=
/div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">Yes, as the story says, that ap=
plies to the languages of the southern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. What's your po=
int?</div><div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D""><br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"yiv691421561gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex;">
<div>As for&nbsp;"pale-orange-of-the-sky" &nbsp;i can do that with tanru or=
 lujvo. And btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might d=
o, and there is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the sam=
e kind of problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube).</div>
<div><br></div><div>So again I can't see any problems with expressing that =
even in English. Indeed it's just&nbsp;"pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with=
 a fixed meaning. What's wrong?</div><div class=3D"yiv691421561"><div class=
=3D"yiv691421561h5">


</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_ex=
tra" style=3D"">What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's "<=
span style=3D"font-size:16px;">languages which go for properties only", "</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:16px;">the only elements of the second sort o=
f languages are properties". I just cited the only example of such language=
s I know of.</span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_extra" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:=
16px;"><br></span></div><div class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_extra" style=3D""><=
span style=3D"font-size:16px;">mu'o mi'e xorxes</span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv691421561gmail_extra" style=3D""><br></div></div>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
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<p></p>

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