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[66.94.237.223]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q46si33002yhh.4.2013.04.27.08.39.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Apr 2013 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.223 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.223; Received: from [66.94.237.126] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2013 15:39:35 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.120] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2013 15:39:35 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1025.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2013 15:39:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 327699.67835.bm@omp1025.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 3761 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Apr 2013 15:39:34 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: .KnkctgVM1msO97uysTXFQvVZsYuZA2VQ3BbUJkJh5ZGBvV wYREjcZzfBsQu.UlJumXiBTzGMk14du3f__yAxWOZwPE7M5eujljEKaUheS_ 50wnjBVhAVHgq44yv2QY6jtHpRxSSLeV7GlGiyxLdtS5Jh8mx448KZlLa0nB cTsXdPILuBpsAIusiDyBu6jPFDg1dRw4qiBZhjg5yzu64xdNdTVVLRQ9t3a0 6OfwPU3FPLFvHqw6SI_D.fZPb7amRsAGZ4pW7g8t8NWIw9c23F4HhypuDBve qOb5nYZMgbLpwNQiqyXTJKh87DdgqnycAH1dc8Z9zTBm1IIxiQ1CTIjXMg1o oWFZFBVakbtm4C8lOpcguH_szaEu41yniAW5_x3UuI5lpmP4A8iB70d9FYlD kFfP5q_T7LHuvfS0qfjCDIwzY8b5QksDVouquE2UG6WHtKgGxahdrKugV5Qo DET10jYN7JQ2_2WyFy.kZJsiVkQ2CmqN.eHGcfIy3ixREzIIxVXmHJWDgOrd nntacCi2fmLdFIDo.V.5a6.aWrprSA0wWE.ITjPzooNhIRR4_WMf8sbVxOUd GCJCkZyOYKIM.57ab_lzZkFWF6dhznchz3E4d9_hOg.kiLSyBd5sB.kTqqoh 6eGT53jqbtfk7vAQRn9YIAWAfRYcnx07MKuA77lSyTja46UY2nZsjPsf..Bk 0NnHiZFKB3yoZSrepRYESVQRjD6g0DvewKppjnb5OW8jZyBNUNJehayixv3D 7lKNDh90LO36vrr8ifZW3KAmz7A5_BAXbsvAHe7m1jQZe6txbZXRHg5VYIj0 HlGN6gLE_Qj1S5iUacNxPXuz6Mxl9VUfOTzWFvBINGfzdJQhVWHpdK7eC9Gv lAi2VIEnxcFCYtjsHLRMtPHwSvIydtioyzCjkU61pSzul1lKFXb364v91IDA DvOrS3_chWmuD2tpMpUA6b1x5rncBZk6O1a2IiKMJ69R.8zO3iE9ZPRJq9s8 ucmhCnwJ665Z4.DKAG6fx8SR1qsy_mdAlcEwYBg9kGH2dLvnzks.0KiZ9nxC RWjwtwduxgiGvjk6NG7_oTvhjzmwsLA-- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 08:39:34 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2VsbCwgZm9yIG9uZSB0aGluZyB0aGVyZSBjb3VsZCBiZSBzZXZlcmFsIG1vb25zIG9yIHRoZSBtb3RoZXIgc2hpcCBvciAuLi4uwqAgCgpZZXMsIGRlc2NlbnQgaXMgdGhlIGRyb3AgZnJvbSBhIHByb3BlcnR5IHRvIGFuIGluc3RhbmNlLsKgIE5vdywgaXQgbWF5IGJlIHRoYXQgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhhdCBkcm9wIG9jY3VycyB0byBhIGNsdXN0ZXIgb2YgcHJvcGVydGllcyAobm90IHRoZSByaWdodCB3b3JkLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIHdoaWNoIGlzIHVuaXF1ZSBpbiB0aGUgZG9tYWluLCBidXQgdGhhdCABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.141.536 References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <97641222.QcRlsCuCi0@caracal> <1366911531.3707.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <6738471.dyVTdTpTmV@caracal> <1366940941.12930.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <56d2e177-400d-4bce-85d1-67ac807a7020@googlegroups.com> <963172bd-e9a0-4beb-89cf-d29840b877c1@googlegroups.com> <1c52c3bc-3922-4e6b-bff0-60cfd57fd75b@googlegroups.com> <1367074898.90512.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <73f3df32-8985-45f0-b6d2-eec68e2a3c01@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1367077174.81679.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 08:39:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <73f3df32-8985-45f0-b6d2-eec68e2a3c01@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.223 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-1000561700-1367077174=:81679" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --1789658926-1000561700-1367077174=:81679 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, for one thing there could be several moons or the mother ship or ....= =A0=20 Yes, descent is the drop from a property to an instance.=A0 Now, it may be = that something like that drop occurs to a cluster of properties (not the ri= ght word, of course) which is unique in the domain, but that still function= s (I suppose) like any other property, being subsumed, overlapping or subsu= ming other properties. ________________________________ From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Cc: John E Clifford =20 Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? =20 On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:01:38 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: The fact that you *can* do something in Lojban=A0 is not terribly important= ; the orange-in-the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful= .=A0 But it wouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which= bears it.=A0 The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages general= ly is that descent doesn't happen Really sorry. I'm not as smart as you in this philosophy. Of course {tsani = ke kandi narju} isn't a name. Although what else could exist in the sky tha= t is pale orange in color? What does "descent" mean? That there is no {la} and no referential use of w= ords in this Tlon language? Again sorry but not all of us are logicians her= e. =A0 .=A0 One of the roughest tests for SWH is Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE langua= ge to all appearances yet used to express philosophies across the range fro= m Aristotelian to Platonic and beyond to pure property and pure process and= even instantaneous sense-data forms.=A0 Of course, it usually fails in the= details, but it goes an awful long way (as trying to translate some Navya-= Nyaya treatises showed me -- dammit, where's the effing subject?).=A0=20 > >aUI, also thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (worse tha= n toki pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses practically f= rom the get-go.=A0 But that has nothing to do with the situation we're disc= ussing. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that it is just L= ojban gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man or beast an= d a few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons.=A0 Again, not obvious= ly relevant here. > > > > >________________________________ > From: Jorge Llamb=EDas >To: loj...@googlegroups.com=20 >Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:08 AM >Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? >=20 > > > > > > > >On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, la gleki wrote: >On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: >>On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki wrote: >>>On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: >>>>=A0 >>>>> >>>>>There's one language I know of that fits that description: the languag= e of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See=A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/= Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius=A0or read the full story here:=A0http://art= .yale.edu/ file_columns/0000/0066/borges. pdf >>>> >>>> >>>>Damn it. It has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is j= ust {ca'o lunra} because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much = difference from "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons. >>> >>> >>>"It mooned" is from the languages of the southern hemisphere: >>> >>> >>>"The preceding applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere. In= =A0 >>>those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very=A0 >>>little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the verb, but = the=A0 >>>monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by an accumulation of=A0 >>>adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on dark= "=A0 >>>or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combination. In the=A0 >>>example selected the mass of adjectives refers to a real object, but thi= s is=A0 >>>purely fortuitous." >> >> >>Quote: > > >Yes, as the story says, that applies to the languages of the southern hemi= sphere of Tl=F6n. What's your point? > > > > >As for=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky" =A0i can do that with tanru or lujvo. An= d btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might do, and the= re is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the same kind of = problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube). >> >> >>So again I can't see any problems with expressing that even in English. I= ndeed it's just=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with a fixed meaning. Wha= t's wrong? > >What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's "languages which = go for properties only", "the only elements of the second sort of languages= are properties". I just cited the only example of such languages I know of= . > > >mu'o mi'e xorxes > > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+un...@ googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/lojban?hl=3Den. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/ groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --1789658926-1000561700-1367077174=:81679 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, for = one thing there could be several moons or the mother ship or .... 
Yes, descent is the drop from a property to an ins= tance.  Now, it may be that something like that drop occurs to a clust= er of properties (not the right word, of course) which is unique in the dom= ain, but that still functions (I suppose) like any other property, being su= bsumed, overlapping or subsuming other properties.

From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Cc: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo= .com>
Sent: Saturd= ay, April 27, 2013 10:17 AM
Subje= ct: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?



On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:01:38 PM UT= C+4, clifford wrote:
<= div>
The fact that you *= can* do something in Lojban  is not terribly important; the orange-in-= the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful.  But it w= ouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which bears it.&nb= sp; The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages generally is that= descent doesn't happen

Really sorry. I'm not as smart as you in this philosophy. Of course {= tsani ke kandi narju} isn't a name. Although what else could exist in the s= ky that is pale orange in color?
What does "descent" mean? That there is no {la} and no referential use of words in this Tlon language? Ag= ain sorry but not all of us are logicians here.

&n= bsp;
.  One of the roughest t= ests for SWH is Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE language to all appearances yet = used to express philosophies across the range from Aristotelian to Platonic= and beyond to pure property and pure process and even instantaneous sense-= data forms.  Of course, it usually fails in the details, but it goes a= n awful long way (as trying to translate some Navya-Nyaya treatises showed = me -- dammit, where's the effing subject?). 
aUI, a= lso thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (worse than toki = pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses practically from the= get-go.  But that has nothing to do with the situation we're discussi= ng. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that it is just Lojba= n gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man or beast and a = few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons.  Again, not obviousl= y relevant here.

From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com>
To: lo= j...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?




On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 A= M, la gleki <gleki.is...= @gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
 
There's one language I know of that fits that description: the languag= e of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wi= ki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius or read the full story here: <= a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://art.yale.edu/file_colum= ns/0000/0066/borges.pdf">http://art.yale.edu/ file_columns/0000/0066/borges= . pdf

Damn it. It = has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is just {ca'o lunra}= because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much difference from = "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons.

"It mooned" is from the languages of the s= outhern hemisphere:

"The preceding applies to= the languages of the southern hemisphere. In 
those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very&nbs= p;
little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the = verb, but the 
monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by= an accumulation of 
adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on da= rk" 
or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combinati= on. In the 
example selected the mass of adjectives refers t= o a real object, but this is 
purely fortuitous."
Quote: <One of the imagined languages of Tl=F6n = lacks nouns. Its central units are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosylla= bic suffixes or prefixes which have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a T= l=F6nic equivalent of "The moon rose above the water": hl=F6r u fang axaxax= as ml=F6, meaning literally "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".><= /div>

Yes, as the story says, that applies to th= e languages of the southern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. What's your point?
<= div>

As for "pale-orange-of-the-sky"  i can do that with tanru or= lujvo. And btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might d= o, and there is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the sam= e kind of problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube).

So again I can't see any problems with expressing that = even in English. Indeed it's just "pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with= a fixed meaning. What's wrong?

What's wrong with what? You a= sked for an example of pc's "languages whic= h go for properties only", "the only= elements of the second sort of languages are properties". I just cited the= only example of such languages I know of.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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