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[66.94.237.208]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n23si314744yhi.7.2013.04.27.10.02.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.208 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.208; Received: from [66.94.237.192] by nm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2013 17:02:25 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.118] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2013 17:02:24 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2013 17:02:24 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 921056.17234.bm@omp1023.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 23469 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Apr 2013 17:02:24 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: SLR_aoIVM1kVN9Jgh5I4fWIH0y12JrzNP_jSvCTaMASW9WW dFaVYQl4XPnNh4gOXttajntQPuInyFnuRg8El7r2J4NtMhGfhJJT1XF2zNEO n2J5rWTig6qKibUGWE0AsuF0RbL0s_fFMqpHbNx_R0p_5VInXzay5SAv4zaD P59xxEpEim_jxEHxrh1785HyUU9vGIF83Jvbnu87hKTgw2OMb7N5XIeosbpR wbdtcGJmYUHYh8rAaiKZN3pkVL_gXSZGfDVCKus0PVKRX.2SuMnO0oX_V9Tm 3mxXUhAOkrsRihs_l71Nb.6EVxHS5HWvvwsJGzQOOt1diLT6fuz78zpXt9XA xl2nf1yOjJBRKP1B5Vd0JL1GeOdt9gUKKlVquFKmdzjVkt5u0IInU9C1wyz8 s3adaLO_bsAaBGl9Av3OGUy07varVcYK0r5NqHZUT9q2wEoLr3odwF7__dNg V2x8hVKQs4dhuAke_dxqkZOcBKb8RmfX7_AGIazKS0IBwKaOk3vXcg6P24j3 C1XIEMGROnkKJw71YOT2O1bfJUX3jHsnZrSnFColVzWArdyU65IJ__yfS_d1 8UtqSXGL2SLOJ9O.uWjPNtWHOo3I3jxRS4ZyYxmMF9d_jGTeevwQbb1YxiLi LsiSSMX58C0UhMnZwGV7WjK0Mip1yNL0NAXX0cZxRrJh9NOztKgIe71a6MBZ Sw10wxF0NTLnLsLdMLzfbfhcNfBu__UTfzXO1zfaApOII7GzThaCDgMvy62Z 8nXtIZe9UALZttle7vl6bPwU5LUanyDvmxIFB2NT3vPZDlP0XFwT4n5R93RU v.cd8ecqWuVYKjmqvuGokbwgqLsreBbPImwI7IkocHhDNmaFwcmtSxsZNGoq WVR_X6.yG3XweRXXkDIFdYJKBJr.sj4Df58uX8frnJ32kcAKYWL7pGMHawiO XO1rtMYCfYVB_NKZBdpnEKqLfxUSzL44GEE7Rg1CcKQof5rqY6izd7EsaGxI 3YVxo_KNf2RvPlwfBBz99eK8PN3WEV3A.wE7zQVbmDKHfHbluVmHPiO7UuXw C1fWRsahjB_h_ZjKcFKHm_GzvvfACcVlISns8Q7ZX.tVd93iDvE0- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:02:24 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,Q29vbGVyIGhlYWRzIGhhdmUgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIHRoYXQgdGhlIGJhc2ljICh1bm1hcmtlZCkgcmVsYXRpb24gaW4gYSBwcm9wZXJ0eSBsYW5ndWFnZSB3b3VsZCBiZSBvdmVybGFwLCBub3QgcGVydmFzaW9uLsKgIFNpbmNlIHRoZSB0d28gYXJlIGR1YWxzLCB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIG1lYW4gdGhhdCBteSBzZW50ZW5jZSB3b3VsZCBiZSBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSAibm90IGh1bWFuaXR5IG5vbi1tb3J0YWxpdHkiIChvZiBjb3Vyc2UsIG92ZXJsYXAgY291bGQgYmUgZGVmaW5lZCBmcm9tIHBlcnZhc2lvbiwgdG9vLCABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.141.536 References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <97641222.QcRlsCuCi0@caracal> <1366911531.3707.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <6738471.dyVTdTpTmV@caracal> <1366940941.12930.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <56d2e177-400d-4bce-85d1-67ac807a7020@googlegroups.com> <963172bd-e9a0-4beb-89cf-d29840b877c1@googlegroups.com> <1c52c3bc-3922-4e6b-bff0-60cfd57fd75b@googlegroups.com> <1367074898.90512.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <73f3df32-8985-45f0-b6d2-eec68e2a3c01@googlegroups.com> <1367077174.81679.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1367082144.9974.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:02:24 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1367077174.81679.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.208 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-334495122-1964224519-1367082144=:9974" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---334495122-1964224519-1367082144=:9974 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cooler heads have suggested that the basic (unmarked) relation in a propert= y language would be overlap, not pervasion.=A0 Since the two are duals, tha= t would mean that my sentence would be something like "not humanity non-mor= tality" (of course, overlap could be defined from pervasion, too, in the sa= me way).=A0 I suppose there would be some more basic way of stating pervasi= on an a property language, since it is important=A0 (and better definitions= , too -- see the whole history orf Navya-Nyaya). ________________________________ From: John E Clifford To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" =20 Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? =20 Well, for one thing there could be several moons or the mother ship or ....= =A0=20 Yes, descent is the drop from a property to an instance.=A0 Now, it may be = that something like that drop occurs to a cluster of properties (not the ri= ght word, of course) which is unique in the domain, but that still function= s (I suppose) like any other property, being subsumed, overlapping or subsu= ming other properties. ________________________________ From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Cc: John E Clifford =20 Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? =20 On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:01:38 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: The fact that you *can* do something in Lojban=A0 is not terribly important= ; the orange-in-the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful= .=A0 But it wouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which= bears it.=A0 The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages general= ly is that descent doesn't happen Really sorry. I'm not as smart as you in this philosophy. Of course {tsani = ke kandi narju} isn't a name. Although what else could exist in the sky tha= t is pale orange in color? What does "descent" mean? That there is no {la} and no referential use of w= ords in this Tlon language? Again sorry but not all of us are logicians her= e. =A0 .=A0 One of the roughest tests for SWH is Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE langua= ge to all appearances yet used to express philosophies across the range fro= m Aristotelian to Platonic and beyond to pure property and pure process and= even instantaneous sense-data forms.=A0 Of course, it usually fails in the= details, but it goes an awful long way (as trying to translate some Navya-= Nyaya treatises showed me -- dammit, where's the effing subject?).=A0=20 > >aUI, also thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (worse tha= n toki pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses practically f= rom the get-go.=A0 But that has nothing to do with the situation we're disc= ussing. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that it is just L= ojban gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man or beast an= d a few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons.=A0 Again, not obvious= ly relevant here. > > > > >________________________________ > From: Jorge Llamb=EDas >To: loj...@googlegroups.com=20 >Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:08 AM >Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? >=20 > > > > > > > >On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, la gleki wrote: >On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: >>On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki wrote: >>>On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: >>>>=A0 >>>>> >>>>>There's one language I know of that fits that description: the languag= e of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See=A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/= Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius=A0or read the full story here:=A0http://art= .yale.edu/ file_columns/0000/0066/borges. pdf >>>> >>>> >>>>Damn it. It has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is j= ust {ca'o lunra} because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much = difference from "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons. >>> >>> >>>"It mooned" is from the languages of the southern hemisphere: >>> >>> >>>"The preceding applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere. In= =A0 >>>those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very=A0 >>>little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the verb, but = the=A0 >>>monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by an accumulation of=A0 >>>adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on dark= "=A0 >>>or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combination. In the=A0 >>>example selected the mass of adjectives refers to a real object, but thi= s is=A0 >>>purely fortuitous." >> >> >>Quote: > > >Yes, as the story says, that applies to the languages of the southern hemi= sphere of Tl=F6n. What's your point? > > > > >As for=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky" =A0i can do that with tanru or lujvo. An= d btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might do, and the= re is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the same kind of = problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube). >> >> >>So again I can't see any problems with expressing that even in English. I= ndeed it's just=A0"pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with a fixed meaning. Wha= t's wrong? > >What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's "languages which = go for properties only", "the only elements of the second sort of languages= are properties". I just cited the only example of such languages I know of= . > > >mu'o mi'e xorxes > > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+un...@ googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/lojban?hl=3Den. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/ groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. =A0 =A0 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ---334495122-1964224519-1367082144=:9974 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cooler hea= ds have suggested that the basic (unmarked) relation in a property language= would be overlap, not pervasion.  Since the two are duals, that would= mean that my sentence would be something like "not humanity non-mortality"= (of course, overlap could be defined from pervasion, too, in the same way)= .  I suppose there would be some more basic way of stating pervasion a= n a property language, since it is important  (and better definitions,= too -- see the whole history orf Navya-Nyaya).

From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com&= gt;
Sent: Saturday, A= pril 27, 2013 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?

Well, for one thing there could be several moons or the mother ship = or .... 
Yes, descent is the drop from a propert= y to an instance.  Now, it may be that something like that drop occurs= to a cluster of properties (not the right word, of course) which is unique= in the domain, but that still functions (I suppose) like any other propert= y, being subsumed, overlapping or subsuming other properties.
<= div>
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Cc: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.= com>
Sent: Saturday= , April 27, 2013 10:17 AM
Subject:= Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=



On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:01:38 PM UTC= +4, clifford wrote:
The fact that you *ca= n* do something in Lojban  is not terribly important; the orange-in-th= e-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful.  But it wou= ldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which bears it. = ; The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages generally is that d= escent doesn't happen

<= div>Really sorry. I'm not as smart as you in this philosophy. Of course {ts= ani ke kandi narju} isn't a name. Although what else could exist in the sky= that is pale orange in color?
What does "descent" mean? That there is no {la} and no referential use of words in this Tlon language? Ag= ain sorry but not all of us are logicians here.

&n= bsp;
.  One of the roughest te= sts for SWH is Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE language to all appearances yet u= sed to express philosophies across the range from Aristotelian to Platonic = and beyond to pure property and pure process and even instantaneous sense-d= ata forms.  Of course, it usually fails in the details, but it goes an= awful long way (as trying to translate some Navya-Nyaya treatises showed m= e -- dammit, where's the effing subject?). 
aUI, a= lso thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (worse than toki = pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses practically from the= get-go.  But that has nothing to do with the situation we're discussi= ng. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that it is just Lojba= n gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man or beast and a = few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons.  Again, not obviousl= y relevant here.

From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com>
To: lo= j...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?




On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 A= M, la gleki <gleki.is...= @gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
 
There's one language I know of that fits that description: the languag= e of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wi= ki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius or read the full story here: <= a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://art.yale.edu/file_colum= ns/0000/0066/borges.pdf">http://art.yale.edu/ file_columns/0000/0066/borges= . pdf

Damn it. It = has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is just {ca'o lunra}= because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much difference from = "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons.

"It mooned" is from the languages of the s= outhern hemisphere:

"The preceding applies to= the languages of the southern hemisphere. In 
those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very&nbs= p;
little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the = verb, but the 
monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by= an accumulation of 
adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on da= rk" 
or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combinati= on. In the 
example selected the mass of adjectives refers t= o a real object, but this is 
purely fortuitous."
Quote: <One of the imagined languages of Tl=F6n = lacks nouns. Its central units are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosylla= bic suffixes or prefixes which have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a T= l=F6nic equivalent of "The moon rose above the water": hl=F6r u fang axaxax= as ml=F6, meaning literally "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".><= /div>

Yes, as the story says, that applies to th= e languages of the southern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. What's your point?
<= div>

As for "pale-orange-of-the-sky"  i can do that with tanru or= lujvo. And btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might d= o, and there is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the sam= e kind of problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube).

So again I can't see any problems with expressing that = even in English. Indeed it's just "pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with= a fixed meaning. What's wrong?

What's wrong with what? You a= sked for an example of pc's "languages whic= h go for properties only", "the only= elements of the second sort of languages are properties". I just cited the= only example of such languages I know of.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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