Received: from mail-vc0-f186.google.com ([209.85.220.186]:49559) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UWK8I-0005Fl-A3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:27:02 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f186.google.com with SMTP id gd11sf1786056vcb.3 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:26:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:cc:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Whik9DOzKxr9xjwT14Fp0YmbM3E5lSx+xhT5Na7TgEk=; b=YJT2EyfTLedwfh8I4R4eYtgNo6QgmnLiuV5QSNYnduLky6jU8JtF33qjthqiRxPDe1 r+1BG4n6OQPKTxShWOEm8EG0/c/tw84pPNDUHRZPcQvXM6ZVcZuqfdwY+KuvGM0oV2gO Wz7Jw0Gpnj/sR90G8gr1LQM3z1rcjzGBCN3UFttnhCztT3ylIcQOwtHDeXg7k/vRo3Xv xd05cZbGrFIJ0IvWLT/857V0QrQ1xxzDGqcXsl7BgPAtGj1Dmb3m4tUisHUkQUAV3Kby erw6auQm8YUjh3rqrzbHiTbxAHLc4Jg3lnJHRTBmKrT9NhS0QdfvYl2dATFEe/uIFKlH WUig== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:cc:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Whik9DOzKxr9xjwT14Fp0YmbM3E5lSx+xhT5Na7TgEk=; b=QmOwmj8xLZ7/3lYWdeX32UtM2Rlafx29uhfAyDN7jjfRtP57sL1P6TCbIQDHUVVxJp gofFoQ8lS2AleDR9cxW77zex67j4OKxRrTyrdgvsxeCdA0OKhpCXW1dvl87Vf/0uaaQk aH32EBxO0yt6R5b6x4HHTcJtCnMgYNqsgsR17fTvdWO64AdCzFM5Q1zaP64qJS1MfzCs ytqkNhacNSvMuetA82p+zsE/9UuO6vkfL81S+KYeJyikG3b71S9dRKcSNCejOLgZIsRw mpvYgSQEiZaxKzTGQg9KDSV6vPYwiZG23SNLHcPh1WCXznsUdeWooTHRQ09vT2dzjIe2 ILgA== X-Received: by 10.49.72.130 with SMTP id d2mr780096qev.42.1367126795734; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:26:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.121.37 with SMTP id lh5ls2151272qeb.66.gmail; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.27.5 with SMTP id p5mr4169407qeg.32.1367126794916; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:26:34 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: John E Clifford Message-Id: <64004f6e-1230-4ea5-9e50-d47c4f125465@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <1367077174.81679.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <97641222.QcRlsCuCi0@caracal> <1366911531.3707.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <6738471.dyVTdTpTmV@caracal> <1366940941.12930.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <56d2e177-400d-4bce-85d1-67ac807a7020@googlegroups.com> <963172bd-e9a0-4beb-89cf-d29840b877c1@googlegroups.com> <1c52c3bc-3922-4e6b-bff0-60cfd57fd75b@googlegroups.com> <1367074898.90512.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <73f3df32-8985-45f0-b6d2-eec68e2a3c01@googlegroups.com> <1367077174.81679.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2442_16238104.1367126794376" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2442_16238104.1367126794376 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:39:34 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > Well, for one thing there could be several moons or the mother ship or=20 > .... =20 > Yes, descent is the drop from a property to an instance. Now, it may be= =20 > that something like that drop occurs to a cluster of properties (not the= =20 > right word, of course) which is unique in the domain, but that still=20 > functions (I suppose) like any other property, being subsumed, overlappin= g=20 > or subsuming other properties. > In {la .alis. cu remna} Alice can refer to several people as well.=20 Referential use of {le} can help if two participants of the conversation=20 have agreed for which object to use it however even in that case there=20 might be misunderstanding ( what if speaker A called an apple {le plise}=20 but the speaker B unlike the speaker B noticed several apples around). Other brivla in Lojban are all properties. I guess in {lo plise cu xunre} {xunre} is a property, right? Then for me the following raising doesn't mean much. {mi viska lo plise noi xunre} {mi viska lo xunre} And of course lo plise =3D zo'e noi plise. (If we for the first time in our life see an orange we might call it {ti=20 plise ga'a mi'a}, so {plise} is also a property). So I just can't see why Lojban is SAE. I have the following case unsolved: The classic contrast between an SAE language and a process one is=20 the name of a wet spot in the Grand Canyon area. The Anglos call it=20 Weeping Spring, a thing with a property. The Hopi call it Whiting=20 Downward, a process. How to say "I'm near the whiting downward" in this language then? I guess in Lojban we can't say {mi jibni lo nu farlu}. How can i be near a= =20 process? I can only be near some atoms taking part in that process. How do the Hopi solve this problem? > ------------------------------ > *From:* la gleki > > *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com =20 > *Cc:* John E Clifford >=20 > *Sent:* Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? > =20 > > > On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:01:38 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > The fact that you *can* do something in Lojban is not terribly important= ;=20 > the orange-in-the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful= . =20 > But it wouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which=20 > bears it. The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages generall= y=20 > is that descent doesn't happen > > > Really sorry. I'm not as smart as you in this philosophy. Of course {tsan= i=20 > ke kandi narju} isn't a name. Although what else could exist in the sky= =20 > that is pale orange in color? > What does "descent" mean? That there is no {la} and no referential use of= =20 > words in this Tlon language? Again sorry but not all of us are logicians= =20 > here. > > =20 > > . One of the roughest tests for SWH is Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE=20 > language to all appearances yet used to express philosophies across the= =20 > range from Aristotelian to Platonic and beyond to pure property and pure= =20 > process and even instantaneous sense-data forms. Of course, it usually= =20 > fails in the details, but it goes an awful long way (as trying to transla= te=20 > some Navya-Nyaya treatises showed me -- dammit, where's the effing=20 > subject?). =20 > aUI, also thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (worse=20 > than toki pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses=20 > practically from the get-go. But that has nothing to do with the situati= on=20 > we're discussing. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that = it=20 > is just Lojban gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man = or=20 > beast and a few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons. Again, not= =20 > obviously relevant here. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jorge Llamb=EDas > *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com=20 > *Sent:* Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:08 AM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? > =20 > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, la gleki wrote: > > On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki wrote: > > On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: > > =20 > There's one language I know of that fits that description: the language o= f=20 > the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius or read the= =20 > full story here: http://art.yale.edu/ file_columns/0000/0066/borges. pdf<= http://art.yale.edu/file_columns/0000/0066/borges.pdf> > > > Damn it. It has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is jus= t=20 > {ca'o lunra} because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much=20 > difference from "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons. > > > "It mooned" is from the languages of the southern hemisphere: > > "The preceding applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere. In=20 > those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very=20 > little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the verb, but= =20 > the=20 > monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by an accumulation of=20 > adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on dark"= =20 > or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combination. In the=20 > example selected the mass of adjectives refers to a real object, but this= =20 > is=20 > purely fortuitous." > > > Quote: units are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosyllabic suffixes or prefixe= s=20 > which have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a Tl=F6nic equivalent of "= The=20 > moon rose above the water": hl=F6r u fang axaxaxas ml=F6, meaning literal= ly=20 > "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".> > > > Yes, as the story says, that applies to the languages of the southern=20 > hemisphere of Tl=F6n. What's your point? > > > As for "pale-orange-of-the-sky" i can do that with tanru or lujvo. And= =20 > btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might do, and the= re=20 > is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the same kind of= =20 > problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube). > > So again I can't see any problems with expressing that even in English.= =20 > Indeed it's just "pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with a fixed meaning.=20 > What's wrong? > > > What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's "languages which= =20 > go for properties only", "the only elements of the second sort of=20 > languages are properties". I just cited the only example of such language= s=20 > I know of. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= =20 > email to lojban+un...@ googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/lojban?hl=3Den > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/ groups/opt_out > . > =20 > =20 > > > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= =20 > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > =20 > =20 > > >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_2442_16238104.1367126794376 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:39:34 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Well, for one thing there could be several moons or the mo= ther ship or .... 
Yes, descent is the drop from a pro= perty to an instance.  Now, it may be that something like that drop oc= curs to a cluster of properties (not the right word, of course) which is un= ique in the domain, but that still functions (I suppose) like any other pro= perty, being subsumed, overlapping or subsuming other properties.

In {la .alis. cu remna} Ali= ce can refer to several people as well. Referential use of {le} can help if= two participants of the conversation have agreed for which object to use i= t however even in that case there might be misunderstanding ( what if speak= er A called an apple {le plise} but the speaker B unlike the speaker B noti= ced several apples around).

Other brivla in Lojban= are all properties.
I guess in {lo plise cu xunre} {xunre} is a = property, right?

Then for me the following raising= doesn't mean much.
{mi viska lo plise noi xunre}
= {mi viska lo xunre}

And of course lo plise = =3D zo'e noi plise.

(If we for the first time in o= ur life see an orange we might call it {ti plise ga'a mi'a}, so {plise} is = also a property).

So I just can't see why Lojban i= s SAE.

I have the following case unsolved:
<quote>The classic contrast between an SAE language and a pro= cess one is the name of a wet spot in the Grand Canyon area.  The Angl= os call it Weeping Spring, a thing with a property.  The Hopi call it = Whiting Downward, a process.</quote>

H= ow to say "I'm near the whiting downward" in this language then?
= I guess in Lojban we can't say {mi jibni lo nu farlu}. How can i be near a = process? I can only be near some atoms taking part in that process.
How do the Hopi solve this problem?



From: la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.= com
Cc: John E Cliff= ord <kali9...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learn= ing Lojban?



On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:01:38 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<= blockquote style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p= adding-left:1ex">
The f= act that you *can* do something in Lojban  is not terribly important; = the orange-in-the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful.&= nbsp; But it wouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing whic= h bears it.  The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages gen= erally is that descent doesn't happen
=

Really sorry. I'm not as smart as you in this philosoph= y. Of course {tsani ke kandi narju} isn't a name. Although what else could = exist in the sky that is pale orange in color?
What does "descent= " mean? That there is no {la} and no referential use of words in this Tlon language? Ag= ain sorry but not all of us are logicians here.

&n= bsp;
= .  One of the roughest tests for SWH is Sanskrit, a thoroughly S= AE language to all appearances yet used to express philosophies across the = range from Aristotelian to Platonic and beyond to pure property and pure pr= ocess and even instantaneous sense-data forms.  Of course, it usually = fails in the details, but it goes an awful long way (as trying to translate= some Navya-Nyaya treatises showed me -- dammit, where's the effing subject= ?). 
aUI, also thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limi= ted vocabulary (worse than toki pona even) and so the need to devise metaph= orical uses practically from the get-go.  But that has nothing to do w= ith the situation we're discussing. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but ru= mor has it that it is just Lojban gone wild, with every possible verb modif= ier known to man or beast and a few that have escaped even the Archons and = Aeons.  Again, not obviously relevant here.

<= /div>
From: Jorge Llamb= =EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com=
Sent: Saturday, Ap= ril 27, 2013 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
<= br>



On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 A= M, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com= > wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wr= ote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
=
 
There's one language I know of that fits that description: the languag= e of the northern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. See http://en.= wikipedia.org/wiki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertius or re= ad the full story here: http://art.yale.edu/= file_columns/0000/0066/borges. pdf

Damn it. It = has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is just {ca'o lunra}= because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much difference from = "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons.

"It mooned" is from the languages of the s= outhern hemisphere:

"The preceding applies to= the languages of the southern hemisphere. In 
those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very&nbs= p;
little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the = verb, but the 
monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by= an accumulation of 
adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on da= rk" 
or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combinati= on. In the 
example selected the mass of adjectives refers t= o a real object, but this is 
purely fortuitous."
Quote: <One of the imagined languages of Tl=F6n = lacks nouns. Its central units are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosylla= bic suffixes or prefixes which have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a T= l=F6nic equivalent of "The moon rose above the water": hl=F6r u fang axaxax= as ml=F6, meaning literally "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".><= /div>

Yes, as the story says, that applies to th= e languages of the southern hemisphere of Tl=F6n. What's your point?
<= div>

As for "pale-orange-of-the-sky"  i can do that with tanru or= lujvo. And btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might d= o, and there is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the sam= e kind of problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube).

So again I can't see any problems with expressing that = even in English. Indeed it's just "pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with= a fixed meaning. What's wrong?

What's wrong with what? You a= sked for an example of pc's "languages which= go for properties only", "the only e= lements of the second sort of languages are properties". I just cited the o= nly example of such languages I know of.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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