Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 03:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
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On Sunday, April 28, 2013 10:27:20 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> On Saturday, April 27, 2013 22:26:34 la gleki wrote: 
> > In {la .alis. cu remna} Alice can refer to several people as well. 
> > Referential use of {le} can help if two participants of the conversation 
> > have agreed for which object to use it however even in that case there 
> > might be misunderstanding ( what if speaker A called an apple {le plise} 
> > but the speaker B unlike the speaker B noticed several apples around). 
> > 
> > Other brivla in Lojban are all properties. 
> > I guess in {lo plise cu xunre} {xunre} is a property, right? 
> > 
> > Then for me the following raising doesn't mean much. 
> > {mi viska lo plise noi xunre} 
> > {mi viska lo xunre} 
> > 
> > And of course lo plise = zo'e noi plise. 
> > 
> > (If we for the first time in our life see an orange we might call it {ti 
> > plise ga'a mi'a}, so {plise} is also a property). 
> > 
> > So I just can't see why Lojban is SAE. 
>
> SAE sensu stricto includes Romance, Germanic, and various other European 
> languages. SAE sensu lato includes, as far as I can see, all of 
> Indo-European, 
> Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Semitic, and probably other families. Either way, 
> it's 
> defined by properties of the language, not by belonging to certain 
> families. 
>


As far as I remember [sei u'i mi morji jenai vedli ;) ] the first written 
record in human history was a Sumerian record that said "A new divine Sun 
has appeared in the sky". We can assume that it was a supernova star (I 
don't remember in what constellation it is located now).

This is a funny fact because then the human written history starts with the 
fact of dealing with property language and actually extending unique 
objects to properties.

So what, Sumerian is also SAE and property-lang at the same time like 
English? What's the point?
That inhabitants of Tlon *had* to use only properties in their speech?  But 
as I show everything can be seen as properties.


> Lojban is definitely not SAE s.s. I think it is not SAE s.l. either, but 
> appears to be because most Lojbanists are native speakers of SAE 
> languages. If 
> we raised Lojban speakers for whom e.g. "le blabi cu mlatu" or "se mlatu 
> le 
> blabi" were no stranger a construction than "le mlatu cu blabi", Lojban as 
> they spoke it would not be SAE s.l. 
>
> I'm not sure I understand "things with holes and things to plug the 
> holes", 
> but unlike all the language families I listed above, Lojban has no 
> adjectives. 


isn't NOI or even tanru adjectives?
 

>
> Lojban does have nouns, but their use is severely restricted compared to 
> SAE 
> languages, common nouns being generally expressed by verbs. 
>


Really? You mean that only KOhA, {zo'e}, {da}, cmene etc. are nouns?
I've never had any problems with {lo ... ku}  even though it is a 
derivation of zo'e + NOI.

brivla are always verbs. (mlatu = to-be-a-cat etc.)


> > I have the following case unsolved: 
> > <quote>The classic contrast between an SAE language and a process one is 
> > the name of a wet spot in the Grand Canyon area.  The Anglos call it 
> > Weeping Spring, a thing with a property.  The Hopi call it Whiting 
> > Downward, a process.</quote> 
> > 
> > How to say "I'm near the whiting downward" in this language then? 
> > I guess in Lojban we can't say {mi jibni lo nu farlu}. How can i be near 
> a 
> > process? I can only be near some atoms taking part in that process. 
> > How do the Hopi solve this problem? 
>
> I'd say it in Lojban "mi jibni le mo'ini'a blabi" (or "la mo'ini'a blabi" 
> since it's a name).


Exactly. But {le blabi}  is a noun.

I don't know Hopi. I assume you do not mean "mo'ini'a 
> merlanu". 
>

Yes, I want Hopi's solution, not lojbanic cheating.

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<br><br>On Sunday, April 28, 2013 10:27:20 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border=
-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Saturday, April 27, 2013 22:26=
:34 la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt; In {la .alis. cu remna} Alice can refer to several people as well.
<br>&gt; Referential use of {le} can help if two participants of the conver=
sation
<br>&gt; have agreed for which object to use it however even in that case t=
here
<br>&gt; might be misunderstanding ( what if speaker A called an apple {le =
plise}
<br>&gt; but the speaker B unlike the speaker B noticed several apples arou=
nd).
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Other brivla in Lojban are all properties.
<br>&gt; I guess in {lo plise cu xunre} {xunre} is a property, right?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Then for me the following raising doesn't mean much.
<br>&gt; {mi viska lo plise noi xunre}
<br>&gt; {mi viska lo xunre}
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And of course lo plise =3D zo'e noi plise.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; (If we for the first time in our life see an orange we might call =
it {ti
<br>&gt; plise ga'a mi'a}, so {plise} is also a property).
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; So I just can't see why Lojban is SAE.
<br>
<br>SAE sensu stricto includes Romance, Germanic, and various other Europea=
n=20
<br>languages. SAE sensu lato includes, as far as I can see, all of Indo-Eu=
ropean,=20
<br>Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Semitic, and probably other families. Either way, =
it's=20
<br>defined by properties of the language, not by belonging to certain fami=
lies.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As far as I remember [s=
ei u'i mi morji jenai vedli ;) ] the first written record in human&nbsp;his=
tory&nbsp;was a Sumerian record that said "A new divine Sun has appeared in=
 the sky". We can assume that it was a supernova star (I don't remember in =
what constellation it is located now).</div><div><br></div><div>This is a f=
unny fact because then the human written history starts with the fact of de=
aling with property language and actually extending unique objects to prope=
rties.</div><div><br></div><div>So what, Sumerian is also SAE and property-=
lang at the same time like English? What's the point?</div><div>That inhabi=
tants of Tlon *had* to use only properties in their speech? &nbsp;But as I =
show everything can be seen as properties.</div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Lojban is definitely not SAE s.s. I think it is not SAE s.l. either, bu=
t=20
<br>appears to be because most Lojbanists are native speakers of SAE langua=
ges. If=20
<br>we raised Lojban speakers for whom e.g. "le blabi cu mlatu" or "se mlat=
u le=20
<br>blabi" were no stranger a construction than "le mlatu cu blabi", Lojban=
 as=20
<br>they spoke it would not be SAE s.l.
<br>
<br>I'm not sure I understand "things with holes and things to plug the hol=
es",=20
<br>but unlike all the language families I listed above, Lojban has no adje=
ctives. </blockquote><div><br></div><div><br>isn't NOI or even tanru adject=
ives?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Lojban does have nouns, but their use is severely restricted compared t=
o SAE=20
<br>languages, common nouns being generally expressed by verbs.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Really? You mean that o=
nly KOhA, {zo'e}, {da}, cmene etc. are nouns?</div><div>I've never had any =
problems with {lo ... ku} &nbsp;even though it is a derivation of zo'e + NO=
I.</div><div><br></div><div>brivla are always verbs. (mlatu =3D to-be-a-cat=
 etc.)</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; I have the following case unsolved:
<br>&gt; &lt;quote&gt;The classic contrast between an SAE language and a pr=
ocess one is
<br>&gt; the name of a wet spot in the Grand Canyon area. &nbsp;The Anglos =
call it
<br>&gt; Weeping Spring, a thing with a property. &nbsp;The Hopi call it Wh=
iting
<br>&gt; Downward, a process.&lt;/quote&gt;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; How to say "I'm near the whiting downward" in this language then?
<br>&gt; I guess in Lojban we can't say {mi jibni lo nu farlu}. How can i b=
e near a
<br>&gt; process? I can only be near some atoms taking part in that process=
.
<br>&gt; How do the Hopi solve this problem?
<br>
<br>I'd say it in Lojban "mi jibni le mo'ini'a blabi" (or "la mo'ini'a blab=
i"=20
<br>since it's a name).</blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Exac=
tly. But {le blabi} &nbsp;is a noun.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;"> I don't know Hopi. I assume you do not mean "m=
o'ini'a=20
<br>merlanu".
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I want Hopi's solution, not lojba=
nic cheating.</div>

<p></p>

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