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Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 07:41:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: BBC on "Spell As You Pronounce Universally"
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The problem is not the alphabet, but the use of it.=A0 English is a horribl=
e (though not the worst apparently) example.=A0 It uses (inefficiently) 26 =
letters for 40+ (varying with dialect) phonemes, most sounds can be spelled=
 at least two ways, many more toward a dozen, and many spellings have more =
than one pronunciation.=A0 This all is largely untrue in Finnish, for examp=
le, and in several other languages which regularly revise the official spel=
ling to meet the changing pronunciation (while trying, with considerable la=
ck of success, to keep the pronunciation shifts from happening).=A0 English=
, with over a hundred *recognized* dialects and no authoritative central co=
ntrol, has no chance of doing any of this.=A0 Nor would a phonetic alphabet=
 help -- it would simply make the various dialects as mutually unintelligib=
le in written form as they are in spoken (I leave the captions on for all B=
BC shows now).=A0 We are essentially in the Chinese position, with a
 written language which we all share (more or less, the Commonwealth has a =
slightly different version, as Taiwan does in the Chinese sphere), which we=
 read by shape without too much attention to the details, but which gives m=
urky clues to pronunciation.=A0 The most a phonetic alphabet would do would=
 be to make out treatment of foreign words a little more respectful.


________________________________
 From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:25 AM
Subject: [lojban] Re: BBC on "Spell As You Pronounce Universally"
=20


On Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:25:39 PM UTC+4, tijlan wrote:
An article that may be of interest to jbopre:
>
>"Could a new phonetic alphabet promote world peace?"
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21505114
>
>Some quotes:
>
>"The reason why Finland shines in education is because their children have=
 to spend very little time learning to read and write. It is completely pho=
netic."
>
>"Utopian language projects, in which an artificial system is put forward a=
s an alternative to what's developed naturally, tend to fail. People are st=
rongly attached to the distinctiveness and idiosyncrasies of whatever langu=
age they use."
>
>"Shared language can dupe us into thinking we share other things - values,=
 beliefs, goals - when in many cases we don't. Does it minimize differences=
, or merely mask them?"
>


There is such a thing as IPA. I don't think it's hard to learn Latin, Cyril=
lic, Greek, Arabic and Hebrew alphabets.
If you need Indian languages learn their alphabets.=A0

Next, I don't want to replace Chinese script with pinyin or similar derivat=
ions. It causes problems even for Chinese that are already forgetting how t=
o write characters due to excessive use of pinyin-enabled keyboards.

Next, such apps like MultiLing O keyboard for Android allow to enter text i=
n any alphabet. And they contain dictionaries now even for Lojban.

Lastly, alphabet wouldn't change much. One would still have to learn all th=
ose languages with old alphabets. You can't remove the written history of h=
umanity and autoconversion from one alphabet into another is still out of q=
uestion cuz we have plenty of paper books.

If you need a unified language that would retain expressive power of other =
languages including even math notation (that is also a language)
then you need Lojban or it's derivatives. Other methods that I know would f=
ail or have already failed.


>mu'o
>
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>The proble=
m is not the alphabet, but the use of it.&nbsp; English is a horrible (thou=
gh not the worst apparently) example.&nbsp; It uses (inefficiently) 26 lett=
ers for 40+ (varying with dialect) phonemes, most sounds can be spelled at =
least two ways, many more toward a dozen, and many spellings have more than=
 one pronunciation.&nbsp; This all is largely untrue in Finnish, for exampl=
e, and in several other languages which regularly revise the official spell=
ing to meet the changing pronunciation (while trying, with considerable lac=
k of success, to keep the pronunciation shifts from happening).&nbsp; Engli=
sh, with over a hundred *recognized* dialects and no authoritative central =
control, has no chance of doing any of this.&nbsp; Nor would a phonetic alp=
habet help -- it would simply make the various dialects as mutually
 unintelligible in written form as they are in spoken (I leave the captions=
 on for all BBC shows now).&nbsp; We are essentially in the Chinese positio=
n, with a written language which we all share (more or less, the Commonweal=
th has a slightly different version, as Taiwan does in the Chinese sphere),=
 which we read by shape without too much attention to the details, but whic=
h gives murky clues to pronunciation.&nbsp; The most a phonetic alphabet wo=
uld do would be to make out treatment of foreign words a little more respec=
tful.<br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new=
 roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-famil=
y: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"=
ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> la gleki &lt;gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&=
gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googleg=
roups.com
 <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, April =
28, 2013 5:25 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span><=
/b> [lojban] Re: BBC on "Spell As You Pronounce Universally"<br> </font> </=
div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv2075829721"><br><br>On Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:25:39 PM UTC+=
4, tijlan wrote:<blockquote class=3D"yiv2075829721gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div>An article that may be of interest to jbopre:<br><br>"Coul=
d a new phonetic alphabet promote world peace?"<br>http://www.bbc.co.uk/new=
s/magazine-21505114<br>
<br>Some quotes:<br><br>"The reason why Finland shines in education is beca=
use their children have to spend very little time learning to read and writ=
e. It is completely phonetic."<br><br>"Utopian language projects, in which =
an artificial system is put forward as an alternative to what's developed n=
aturally, tend to fail. People are strongly attached to the distinctiveness=
 and idiosyncrasies of whatever language they use."<br>
<br>"Shared language can dupe us into thinking we share other things - valu=
es, beliefs, goals - when in many cases we don't. Does it minimize differen=
ces, or merely mask them?"<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>There is such a thing as IPA. I don't think it's hard to lea=
rn Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, Arabic and Hebrew alphabets.</div><div>If you ne=
ed Indian languages learn their alphabets.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>N=
ext, I don't want to replace Chinese script with pinyin or similar derivati=
ons. It causes problems even for Chinese that are already forgetting how to=
 write characters due to excessive use of pinyin-enabled keyboards.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Next, such apps like MultiLing O keyboard for Android all=
ow to enter text in any alphabet. And they contain dictionaries now even fo=
r Lojban.</div><div><br></div><div>Lastly, alphabet wouldn't change much. O=
ne would still have to learn all those languages with old alphabets.
 You can't remove the written history of humanity and autoconversion from o=
ne alphabet into another is still out of question cuz we have plenty of pap=
er books.</div><div><br></div><div>If you need a unified language that woul=
d retain expressive power of other languages including even math notation (=
that is also a language)</div><div>then you need Lojban or it's derivatives=
. Other methods that I know would fail or have already failed.</div><div><b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv2075829721gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;ma=
rgin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><br></div>mu'o<br></div>
</blockquote>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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