Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.143 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.143;
References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <1367077174.81679.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <64004f6e-1230-4ea5-9e50-d47c4f125465@googlegroups.com> <2522542.hS9FGoL6dn@caracal> <f20e55e7-1bfc-4836-9f77-3ce08e5287d0@googlegroups.com> <1367185250.6160.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <517DCF53.4010609@lojban.org>
Message-ID: <1367261750.58291.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 11:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <517DCF53.4010609@lojban.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-334495122-1587839796-1367261750=:58291"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

---334495122-1587839796-1367261750=:58291
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, the "standard semantics" of Lojban makes the referents of all 'lo bro=
da' expressions things in the operant sense,=A0 "the salient node in the up=
ward semilattice on the extension of {broda} under jest ) (part-whole)", so=
 anything between all the brodas and a microscopic speck of broda goo, as t=
he case requires.

The Nootka experience is directly relevant here, since what you got from se=
ntences were, in Lojban, merely complex selbri, not bridi at all for lack o=
f a=A0 sumti.=A0 Nootka is apparently a property or process language which =
can express complete sentences without a reference to things.=A0 Add it to =
the list.


________________________________
 From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20

John E Clifford wrote:
> This is all getting very confusing to me; I either don't get the point
> of various comments or I don't see the relevance of them to what I think
> is the topic at hand (which long ago ceased to be about learning Lojban
> -- we ought to change the title).=A0 Let try to sort some things out for
> my own benefit.
> SAEss is a late derivative (and probably the result of a
> misunderstanding) of SAEsl, a term Whorf apparently coined.=A0 It happens
> that all of the ss languages are also sl, which reenforces the confusion.
> The fact that Lojban has adjectives and verbs and common nouns -- or
> doesn't -- is largely irrelevant to the question whether it is a SAE
> ("thing"), property, process or sensation language.

lo, loka lopu'u, and loli'i should be able to express these, respectively (=
and we have a few other abstractors as well.=A0 Whether they semantically m=
atch the targeted languages is less clear.

I guess you might argue that sticking lo on a property, process, etc makes =
it grammatically a "thing", but I think that is an artifact of translating =
the expressions into English, where sumti become grammatical nouns or gerun=
ds.=A0 Nora has always looked at brivla as being more verblike than any oth=
er part of speech, with the various cmavo acting on the grammatical roles b=
ut not really changing the Lojban semantics (though again translating the s=
emantics into English tends to invoke English parts of speech).

I am still remembering my efforts at translating Nootka, wherein I expresse=
d entire sentences as complex tanru, never using any sumti at all.

> It can (more or
> less by design) reproduce the effects of all sorts of languages, but to
> do so, it must convert properties or processes or sensations into
> things.

No.=A0 cmavo convert brivla into sumti or mexso or ..., but none of those a=
re necessarily "things".

lojbab


-- Bob LeChevalier=A0 =A0 lojbab@lojban.org=A0 =A0 www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


---334495122-1587839796-1367261750=:58291
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Well, the =
"standard semantics" of Lojban makes the referents of all 'lo broda' expres=
sions things in the operant sense,&nbsp; "the salient node in the upward se=
milattice on the extension of {broda} under jest ) (part-whole)", so anythi=
ng between all the brodas and a microscopic speck of broda goo, as the case=
 requires.</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; =
font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; background-color: transp=
arent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,ser=
if; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>The Nootka ex=
perience is directly relevant here, since what you got from sentences were,=
 in Lojban, merely complex selbri, not bridi at all for lack of a&nbsp;
 sumti.&nbsp; Nootka is apparently a property or process language which can=
 express complete sentences without a reference to things.&nbsp; Add it to =
the list.<br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times=
 new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-f=
amily: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=
=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=
=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Bob LeChevalier, President and Fou=
nder - LLG" &lt;lojbab@lojban.org&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bo=
ld;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-wei=
ght: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:39 PM<br> <b><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit l=
earning Lojban?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
John E Clifford wrote:<br>&gt; This is all getting very confusing to me; I =
either don't get the point<br>&gt; of various comments or I don't see the r=
elevance of them to what I think<br>&gt; is the topic at hand (which long a=
go ceased to be about learning Lojban<br>&gt; -- we ought to change the tit=
le).&nbsp; Let try to sort some things out for<br>&gt; my own benefit.<br>&=
gt; SAEss is a late derivative (and probably the result of a<br>&gt; misund=
erstanding) of SAEsl, a term Whorf apparently coined.&nbsp; It happens<br>&=
gt; that all of the ss languages are also sl, which reenforces the confusio=
n.<br>&gt; The fact that Lojban has adjectives and verbs and common nouns -=
- or<br>&gt; doesn't -- is largely irrelevant to the question whether it is=
 a SAE<br>&gt; ("thing"), property, process or sensation language.<br><br>l=
o, loka lopu'u, and loli'i should be able to express these, respectively (a=
nd we have a few other abstractors as well.&nbsp; Whether they
 semantically match the targeted languages is less clear.<br><br>I guess yo=
u might argue that sticking lo on a property, process, etc makes it grammat=
ically a "thing", but I think that is an artifact of translating the expres=
sions into English, where sumti become grammatical nouns or gerunds.&nbsp; =
Nora has always looked at brivla as being more verblike than any other part=
 of speech, with the various cmavo acting on the grammatical roles but not =
really changing the Lojban semantics (though again translating the semantic=
s into English tends to invoke English parts of speech).<br><br>I am still =
remembering my efforts at translating Nootka, wherein I expressed entire se=
ntences as complex tanru, never using any sumti at all.<br><br>&gt; It can =
(more or<br>&gt; less by design) reproduce the effects of all sorts of lang=
uages, but to<br>&gt; do so, it must convert properties or processes or sen=
sations into<br>&gt; things.<br><br>No.&nbsp; cmavo convert brivla
 into sumti or mexso or ..., but none of those are necessarily "things".<br=
><br>lojbab<br><br><br>-- Bob LeChevalier&nbsp; &nbsp; <a ymailto=3D"mailto=
:lojbab@lojban.org" href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org">lojbab@lojban.org</a>=
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/">www.lojb=
an.org</a><br>President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.<br><b=
r>-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving em=
ails from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@goog=
legroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@goog=
legroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban=
@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou=
p/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, visit <a
 href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> </=
div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

---334495122-1587839796-1367261750=:58291--