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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 09:14:35 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOQ8VDW4hKysohmTuwMvGmbrMdq9nCNc=gYdA8udosND=QFwMw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: what {me lo broda ku} means and why not allow
 {selbri NOI}
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On 1 May 2013 08:18, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jacob Errington:
>
>> Regardless of these transformations, I have to admit that using
>> selbri-NOI like this is *weird* in cases where the selbri isn't a noun-type
>> selbri (having a definition of {x1 is a <something> ...})
>
>
>   Such thinking in itself is (AFAIC)  malrarbau.  There really are no such
> things as "noun-type" selbri.  Or, conversely, all selbri are "noun-type".
>  Name one that isn't. Any selbri that can take a LE in front of it (i.e.
> all of them) is noun-type.  Please tell me any that aren't.   I've long
> advocated for selbri+NOI, and I don't think it should be that difficult.  I
> see them as ko'a broda NOI brode -> ko'a me lo broda NOI brode me'u
>
>
Haha. The point I raised in one of my mails is that the very *concept* of
selbri+NOI stems from malrarbau:

>"This is the house that I used to live in." "This is the dog that I take
care of." "This is my friend whom I've known for a long time." What do
these all have in common? Nouns.

Thus, selbri+NOI will get used to just more easily gloss european languages
that allow this sort of thing. Turns out I also said that already:

>All they [the various possible extensions of relative clauses] really do
is make a certain number of naive assumptions about relative clauses true.

You're right though. All selbri are equal. However, some are extremely
nounish in their meaning. Some selbri will almost never appear inside {nu},
for instance, which is a typical indicator that they are "nouns". I
challenge someone to find a use of {lo nu stizu} in the corpus, zo'oru'e.
In general, all these selbri are defined in English using the verb "to be".

All in all, if one really just *speaks Lojban*, one realizes that
selbri+NOI isn't needed. There're other (IMO better) ways to get your point
across. (I've given loads of examples in my second post in this thread.)
There're features of Lojban that I might like to have in English; that
doesn't mean that I try to change the language to get them.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 1 May 2013 08:18, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jacob Errington:</div><div class=3D"=
im">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px=
">Regardless of these transformations, I have to admit that using selbri-NO=
I like this is *weird* in cases where the selbri isn&#39;t a noun-type selb=
ri (having a definition of {x1 is a &lt;something&gt; ...})</span></blockqu=
ote>


<div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span=
></div></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13p=
x">=A0 Such thinking in itself is (AFAIC) =A0malrarbau. =A0There really are=
 no such things as &quot;noun-type&quot; selbri. =A0Or, conversely, all sel=
bri are &quot;noun-type&quot;. =A0Name one that isn&#39;t. Any selbri that =
can take a LE in front of it (i.e. all of them) is noun-type. =A0Please tel=
l me any that aren&#39;t. =A0 I&#39;ve long advocated for selbri+NOI, and I=
 don&#39;t think it should be that difficult. =A0I see them as ko&#39;a bro=
da NOI brode -&gt; ko&#39;a me lo broda NOI brode me&#39;u=A0</span></div>


<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Haha. The point=
 I raised in one of my mails is that the very *concept* of selbri+NOI stems=
 from malrarbau:</div><div style><br></div><div style><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">&gt;&quot;This is th=
e house that I used to live in.&quot; &quot;This is the dog that I take car=
e of.&quot; &quot;This is my friend whom I&#39;ve known for a long time.&qu=
ot; What do these all have in common? Nouns.</span>=A0</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Thus, selbri+NOI will get used to just more=
 easily gloss european languages that allow this sort of thing. Turns out I=
 also said that already:</div><div style><br></div><div style>&gt;<span sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">All they=
 [the various possible extensions of relative clauses] really do is make a =
certain number of naive assumptions about relative clauses true.</span></di=
v>

<div style><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333339=
69116211px"><br></span></div><div style><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">You&#39;re right though. All selbr=
i are equal. However, some are extremely nounish in their meaning. Some sel=
bri will almost never appear inside {nu}, for instance, which is a typical =
indicator that they are &quot;nouns&quot;. I challenge someone to find a us=
e of {lo nu stizu} in the corpus, zo&#39;oru&#39;e. In general, all these s=
elbri are defined in English using the verb &quot;to be&quot;.</span></div>

<div style><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333339=
69116211px"><br></span></div><div style><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Al=
l in all, if one really just *speaks Lojban*, one realizes that selbri+NOI =
isn&#39;t needed. There&#39;re other (IMO better) ways to get your point ac=
ross. (I&#39;ve given loads of examples in my second post in this thread.) =
There&#39;re features of Lojban that I might like to have in English; that =
doesn&#39;t mean that I try to change the language to get them.</font></div=
>

<div style><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, sans-serif">.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</font></div></d=
iv></div></div>

<p></p>

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