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[66.94.236.23]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q46si282766yhh.4.2013.05.01.08.27.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 01 May 2013 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.23 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.23; Received: from [66.94.237.194] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2013 15:27:08 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.102] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2013 15:27:07 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2013 15:27:07 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 898964.81984.bm@omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 27886 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2013 15:27:07 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: DwyS7PwVM1l.GOGR2KSSDpv.OquSaH.cX0kfjpsM6qmhJQs XhRycr0SIueYvYPsiCCvpzH6nFBThhrT0SfSPjOL2MIUSrbIhdvdiH4IQGs_ 8v59rZH6nu_BMMMlD7w4ylhrpkYM0P8Kau18PWJAquKWXm8.p6g46Np4ReRH 4h1vmadmIdiTUZwahS0dkpEUYtMI5VaFVQ5Q_U1QdxDKXTBfyxyJtecTZ8G_ HccF1jHYA.A9qzL605ODJnYXGrl_2s4dyuKdQ3SwjmOzLh.rj0BROP2FRo3E 29wXUWi_lAdgMQ65BsvUkHaBYAvjkJ8c83h0jqK5.Cg08wn0WAM7Wr4eLpNK R.TYqNDGg871lD7PJARnFN7UwTvTJ1ZmmAaq95zmeI7kICYHOcmJfrw_9.3a daI4m4lbXgFNu5cktTAu0z2fHjfsqVr9N134zV51l_QhJYmaF4xQfMl4OBff NZiHC8m81n_FG6oC15nMKLWSyLfLw6XLU.P9MdUKYl0S3MyWfRcl7c54Yh1d VPDddn1G6jMbJgDOWwrC9mWsA46E4VNopUe4elceaXW.D985H5yZJVPTjFN9 3nP0oRpqD7vU0X32EG9q1wkjVRco9G8_RSMAHk6zymbgw9n4wBTkiIpjoEd4 Kxz_e8OhuTZ9yzPfP5DfsGE5kWFkbXHd1HiFygEj_F8F0DnNMBfz7dLCxDZC ES9MwBp8Hx_KHiJZN8RfvlfJTMhQcS.cAVkoq73UAF4jr943nzKDLT8.O5NW ajClh4.r57y.4zhcUbjX0l4BFQMwcHqvHQIk10UUplnHJCU1dI6PmSt8CcMS 1PdyK.0USVVtBSQnZy9wM8LkHcuKI_TPBG1TtwgkzpPDiYi3GAkOhuPy_RWm 3ptvrUwISYQk- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 May 2013 08:27:07 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSBhYm91dCBjb21tYW5kcz8gYXMgb3Bwb3NlZCB0byByZXF1ZXN0cywgcGxlYXMgYW5kIGRlbWFuZHM_wqAgVGhlc2UgYXJlbid0IGxpbmd1aXN0aWMsIGFsdGhvdWdoIHdlIGhhdmUgdm9jYWJ1bGFyeSBmb3IgdGhlbS7CoCBXaGF0IGVsc2U_CgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCiBGcm9tOiAuYXJwaXMuIDxycGdsb3ZlcjY0K2pib2JhdUBnbWFpbC5jb20.ClRvOiBMb2piYW4gPGxvamJhbkBnb29nbGVncm91cHMuY29tPiAKU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGEBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.141.536 References: <20130429163424.GP10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <517EA2D8.4000206@gmx.de> <20130430195657.GM10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <17c5855e-538c-41bd-b1d9-ce5fc57fe533@googlegroups.com> <20130501105413.GP10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <51811B75.4030106@lojban.org> Message-ID: <1367422027.27690.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 08:27:07 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Robin does the xorban (was Re: [lojban] Baby Words: "you're right" and orders.) To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-661311690-1367422027=:27690" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --1789658926-661311690-1367422027=:27690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is the problem about commands? as opposed to requests, pleas and deman= ds?=A0 These aren't linguistic, although we have vocabulary for them.=A0 Wh= at else? ________________________________ From: .arpis. To: Lojban =20 Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Robin does the xorban (was Re: [lojban] Baby Words: "you're ri= ght" and orders.) =20 Are constraint (e'i) and obligation (ei) such different concepts that we wa= nt two separate short words for them, especially at the expense of having a= short way to be explicit about commands? On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LL= G wrote: Robin Lee Powell wrote: > >On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 12:43:14AM -0700, la gleki wrote: >> >> >>> >>>On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:56:57 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 06:42:00PM +0200, selpa'i wrote: >>>> >>>>la .camgusmis. cu cusku di'e >>>>> >>>>>1. =A0How would you mark a {ko} that's an order? =A0I use {e'o} for >>>>>>requests. =A0For "You must do this!" I've been using {ga'i}, but >>>>>>it's a tad unsatisfying. >>>>>> >>>>>The currently proposed BPFK meaning for {.e'i} is just that. >>>>>{.e'i} becomes an irrealis attitudinal marking a command/order. >>>>>Although this may seem like a big change to definition of the >>>>>word, it seems to be the only way to express orders of this kind, >>>>>so: >>>>> >>>>>{.e'i do na broda} >>>>> >>>>>I'm not sure I am 100% behind this definition, but the above >>>>>argument speaks for it. >>>>> >>>>Given the incredibly tiny usage of {.e'i} according to the corpus >>>>application (250 uses on IRC, and essentially none elsewhere, >>>>especially if you ignore xorxes' usages since this was his >>>>tinkering), I've decided that my household dialect will, in fact, >>>>use {.e'i} as a command imperative. >>>> >>>> >>>who has approved of it: >>>1.camgusmis >>>2.gleki >>> >>>who is against it: >>>1. >>> >>There are many people who would have been against it back in the >>day, but the only one I know who is still active is Arnt. >> > My interpretation of .e'i would have been that it would be expressed by som= eone who is under orders, not giving orders. =A0I'm not sure that this usag= e is entirely in conflict with your idea, though I think it would be one re= ceiving the order who would express it. =A0You want the kids to feel constr= ained/compelled; you don't feel that way yourself, so perhaps empathy needs= to be invoked. > >Or the scale could be changed in definition to reflect actual usage. > >I'll reserve judgement until I think about it a bit more (though of course= I am "against" all change on principle until we have the baseline CLL %^) > >lojbab > > >--=20 >Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0lojbab@lojban.org =A0 =A0www.lojban.org >President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .arpis. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --1789658926-661311690-1367422027=:27690 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is th= e problem about commands? as opposed to requests, pleas and demands?  = These aren't linguistic, although we have vocabulary for them.  What e= lse?

From: .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com&g= t;
To: Lojban <lojb= an@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Robin does the xorban (was Re: [lojban] Baby= Words: "you're right" and orders.)

Are constraint (e'i) and obligati= on (ei) such different concepts that we want two separate short words for t= hem, especially at the expense of having a short way to be explicit about c= ommands?


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:41 = AM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
Robin Lee Powell wrote:
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 12:43:14AM -0700, la gleki wrote:


On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:56:57 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:

On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 06:42:00PM +0200, selpa'i wrote:
la .camgusmis. cu cusku di'e
1.  How would you mark a {ko} that's an order?  I use {e'o} for requests.  For "You must do this!" I've been using {ga'i}, but
it's a tad unsatisfying.

The currently proposed BPFK meaning for {.e'i} is just that.
{.e'i} becomes an irrealis attitudinal marking a command/order.
Although this may seem like a big change to definition of the
word, it seems to be the only way to express orders of this kind,
so:

{.e'i do na broda}

I'm not sure I am 100% behind this definition, but the above
argument speaks for it.

Given the incredibly tiny usage of {.e'i} according to the corpus
application (250 uses on IRC, and essentially none elsewhere,
especially if you ignore xorxes' usages since this was his
tinkering), I've decided that my household dialect will, in fact,
use {.e'i} as a command imperative.


who has approved of it:
1.camgusmis
2.gleki

who is against it:
1.

There are many people who would have been against it back in the
day, but the only one I know who is still active is Arnt.

My interpretation of .e'i would have been that it would be expressed by som= eone who is under orders, not giving orders.  I'm not sure that this u= sage is entirely in conflict with your idea, though I think it would be one= receiving the order who would express it.  You want the kids to feel = constrained/compelled; you don't feel that way yourself, so perhaps empathy= needs to be invoked.

Or the scale could be changed in definition to reflect actual usage.

I'll reserve judgement until I think about it a bit more (though of course = I am "against" all change on principle until we have the baseline CLL %^)
lojbab


--
Bob LeChevalier    lojbab@lojba= n.org    www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.


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--
mu'o mi'e .= arpis.
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