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Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 18:57:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Robin does the xorban (was Re: [lojban] Baby Words: "you're
 right" and orders.)
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If the batfuckers ever meet again, they might just take UI apart and start =
over.=A0 Or not, of course. But it is in bad shape, based on bad original d=
efinitions (back to JCB) and years of uncontrolled overlays, which have bur=
ied much that was at least not awful.


________________________________
 From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2013 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Robin does the xorban (was Re: [lojban] Baby Words: "you're ri=
ght" and orders.)
=20

On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 12:32:03PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President
and Founder - LLG wrote:
> .arpis. wrote:
> >Are constraint (e'i) and obligation (ei) such different concepts
> >that we want two separate short words for them, especially at the
> >expense of having a short way to be explicit about commands?
>=20
> They certainly are different emotionally,=20

I disagree.

> I do many things out of a feeling of obligation that I do not in
> fact feel constrained/compelled to do.

Then our definitions of those words differ.

> More importantly, a command is not really an emotional affect.

I *utterly* disagree.=A0 When I'm yelling at my child to do something,
"you must do this thing" is an emotional affect.

> Perhaps "feeling in authority" would be an emotional affect that
> might mark something as a command, but that is probably the ga'i
> that Robin found unsatisfying (per his original post on the
> topic). koga'i would seem to me to mean "do it, because >I< said
> so".

Yeah, that's what I was going for.

> Myself, I've always considered that an unmarked ko is a command,
> which is where ".e'osai ko sarji" originated from - without it, I am
> commanding the listener to support Lojban, which is an unseemly sort
> of thing to command.=A0=20

Interesting.

> Wanting to emphasize the command nature, perhaps for
> immediacy/intensity, I might mark the ko itself with cai (which
> conveniently, not by design, happens to be similar in sound to
> "ca" for "now"), but none of the indicators.

Also very interesting, due to an unrelated discussion about using
CAI to mark random words in the language.

-Robin

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>If the bat=
fuckers ever meet again, they might just take UI apart and start over.&nbsp=
; Or not, of course. But it is in bad shape, based on bad original definiti=
ons (back to JCB) and years of uncontrolled overlays, which have buried muc=
h that was at least not awful.<br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=
=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"=
> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-=
size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Robin Lee Pow=
ell &lt;rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-w=
eight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, May 2, 2013 5:31 PM<br> <b><span
 style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Robin does the xorban=
 (was Re: [lojban] Baby Words: "you're right" and orders.)<br> </font> </di=
v> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 12:32:03PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President<br>and=
 Founder - LLG wrote:<br>&gt; .arpis. wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;Are constraint (e'=
i) and obligation (ei) such different concepts<br>&gt; &gt;that we want two=
 separate short words for them, especially at the<br>&gt; &gt;expense of ha=
ving a short way to be explicit about commands?<br>&gt; <br>&gt; They certa=
inly are different emotionally, <br><br>I disagree.<br><br>&gt; I do many t=
hings out of a feeling of obligation that I do not in<br>&gt; fact feel con=
strained/compelled to do.<br><br>Then our definitions of those words differ=
.<br><br>&gt; More importantly, a command is not really an emotional affect=
.<br><br>I *utterly* disagree.&nbsp; When I'm yelling at my child to do som=
ething,<br>"you must do this thing" is an emotional affect.<br><br>&gt; Per=
haps "feeling in authority" would be an emotional affect that<br>&gt; might=
 mark something as a command, but that is probably the ga'i<br>&gt;
 that Robin found unsatisfying (per his original post on the<br>&gt; topic)=
. koga'i would seem to me to mean "do it, because &gt;I&lt; said<br>&gt; so=
".<br><br>Yeah, that's what I was going for.<br><br>&gt; Myself, I've alway=
s considered that an unmarked ko is a command,<br>&gt; which is where ".e'o=
sai ko sarji" originated from - without it, I am<br>&gt; commanding the lis=
tener to support Lojban, which is an unseemly sort<br>&gt; of thing to comm=
and.&nbsp; <br><br>Interesting.<br><br>&gt; Wanting to emphasize the comman=
d nature, perhaps for<br>&gt; immediacy/intensity, I might mark the ko itse=
lf with cai (which<br>&gt; conveniently, not by design, happens to be simil=
ar in sound to<br>&gt; "ca" for "now"), but none of the indicators.<br><br>=
Also very interesting, due to an unrelated discussion about using<br>CAI to=
 mark random words in the language.<br><br>-Robin<br><br>-- <br>You receive=
d this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving email=
s from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googleg=
roups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googleg=
roups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto=
:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@go=
oglegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/l=
ojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.=
com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_=
out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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