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Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 19:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Time-(non)local sumti (was: Mixing tenses, on the
 beginners list)
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 Content preview:  So, the stock loglang definition: a language (this is loaded,
    note) in which each discourse has a single possible parse and that parse
   gives the logical structure (as defined somehow, FOPL on steroids for the
   nonce) of the discourse. [...] 
 
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So, the stock loglang definition: a language (this is loaded, note) in whic=
h each discourse has a single possible parse and that parse gives the logic=
al structure (as defined somehow, FOPL on steroids for the nonce) of the di=
scourse. =A0=20


________________________________
 From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2013 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Time-(non)local sumti (was: Mixing tenses, on the beg=
inners list)
=20


On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wro=
te:


>
>On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>This amounts to saying it can be local or nonlocal, but doesn't specify ho=
w to *explicitly* state the distinction. The ability to make such specifica=
tions (if the language supports them at all) is pretty much my third axiom =
for Lojban design :)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>I don't think the language supports that disticntion via grammar (it can m=
ake it semantically just as you are making it in English, of course). If yo=
u want a grammatical support for the distinction, I guess the first step wo=
uld be to show why it would be desirable. Just because a distinction can be=
 made is not reason enough to make it.
A more precise statement of the axiom is that if there's a distinction that=
 can be made, you should be able to make it explicitly, and (for the most p=
art) should have the option to just not make it, as well. In other words, n=
othing we care about should be required to be implicit, to the extent possi=
ble. English more or less fails to meet this requirement all the way down a=
t the grammatical level, since you can't really maintain control of how cla=
uses attach to one another.

>
>(What are your other axioms?)
First axiom: the grammar is formally parsable, with a significant amount of=
 "structural semantics" being reflected in the parse tree. A formally parsa=
ble language with only one grammatical class meets the first requirement bu=
t not the second. su'o so'a natlangs meet the second requirement (i.e. if y=
ou have a parse tree you can make inferences about low-level semantics) but=
 not the first.=A0

Second axiom: referential and semantic transparency to the extent possible.=
 This is not an expectation of perfection, it's a goal rather than a requir=
ement.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>So, the st=
ock loglang definition: a language (this is loaded, note) in which each dis=
course has a single possible parse and that parse gives the logical structu=
re (as defined somehow, FOPL on steroids for the nonce) of the discourse. &=
nbsp; <br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times ne=
w roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D=
"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ian Johnson &lt;blindbravado@gmail.com&=
gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googleg=
roups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thurs=
day, May 2, 2013 7:52 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:=
</span></b> Re:
 [lojban] Time-(non)local sumti (was: Mixing tenses, on the beginners list)=
<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1261519386"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:42 PM, =
Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.c=
om">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"yiv12615193=
86gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div clas=
s=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_quote"><div=
 class=3D"yiv1261519386im">On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Ian Johnson <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com">blindbravado@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);">This amounts to saying it can be local or nonl=
ocal, but doesn't specify how to *explicitly* state the distinction. The ab=
ility to make such specifications (if the language supports them at all) is=
 pretty much my third axiom for Lojban design :)</span><br>


</div><div class=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1261519386gm=
ail_quote"><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></d=
iv><div>I don't think the language supports that disticntion via grammar (i=
t can make it semantically just as you are making it in English, of course)=
. If you want a grammatical support for the distinction, I guess the first =
step would be to show why it would be desirable. Just because a distinction=
 can be made is not reason enough to make it.</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"">A more precise statement of =
the axiom is that if there's a distinction that can be made, you should be =
able to make it explicitly, and (for the most part) should have the option =
to just not make it, as well. In other words, nothing we care about should =
be required to be implicit, to the extent possible. English more or less fa=
ils to meet this requirement all the way down at the grammatical level, sin=
ce you can't really maintain control of how clauses attach to one another.<=
/div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"yiv1261519386gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1261519386gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div>(What are your other axioms?)</div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div style=3D"">First axiom: the grammar is formally parsable, w=
ith a significant amount of "structural semantics" being reflected in the p=
arse tree. A formally parsable language with only one grammatical class mee=
ts the first requirement but not the second. su'o so'a natlangs meet the se=
cond requirement (i.e. if you have a parse tree you can make inferences abo=
ut low-level semantics) but not the first.&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">Second axiom: referential and sem=
antic transparency to the extent possible. This is not an expectation of pe=
rfection, it's a goal rather than a requirement.</div><div style=3D""><br><=
/div><div style=3D"">
mi'e la latro'a mu'o</div></div></div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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