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Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 22:35:51 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgKCJVV4z7F4XrtX_EJTT4uJ_huEYrfRP0FRpgasGT8XFw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Time-(non)local sumti (was: Mixing tenses, on the
 beginners list)
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2 May 2013 22:23, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> But you seem to have answered this question.  As xorxes notes, our
>> formula 'lo ca me mi' or whatever, clearly indicates a temporally segmented
>> mi, 'mi' alone leaves the matter open.  So how do we speak of the perduring
>> mi?
>>
>>
> I'd say that 'mi' alone is the perduring mi, and that {lo me mi} is
> roughly equivalent to it (minus lo's ability to retrieve only salient
> referents / not-quite-referents, i.e. me-mi goo). Tacking extra
> specifications onto lo me mi is what gets at particular, time-local
> referents.
>
> On a philosophical level, I'm not too fond of the idea of time-locally
> delimited sumti, and I've always found ways to rephrase. A longlasting
> problem was "I'm better at swimming than I used to be," which, rather than
> with {zmadu}, I translate with {ba'o zenba}.
>
Similarly with a generic "I differ from my previous self in that ...", you
can use {ba'o cenba}. Techniques like this, with a single {mi} whose
*properties* vary in time, make more sense to me than local *referents*.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Jacob Errington <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictyt=
an@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"im">On 2 May =
2013 22:23, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9pu=
tra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"i=
m">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><span>But you seem to have ans=
wered this question.=A0 As xorxes notes, our formula &#39;lo ca me mi&#39; =
or whatever, clearly indicates a temporally segmented mi, &#39;mi&#39; alon=
e leaves the matter open.=A0 So how do we speak of the perduring mi?<br>


</span></div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><=
div>I&#39;d say that &#39;mi&#39; alone is the perduring mi, and that {lo m=
e mi} is roughly equivalent to it (minus lo&#39;s ability to retrieve only =
salient referents / not-quite-referents, i.e. me-mi goo). Tacking extra spe=
cifications onto lo me mi is what gets at particular, time-local referents.=
</div>


<div><br></div><div>On a philosophical level, I&#39;m not too fond of the i=
dea of time-locally delimited sumti, and I&#39;ve always found ways to reph=
rase. A longlasting problem was &quot;I&#39;m better at swimming than I use=
d to be,&quot; which, rather than with {zmadu}, I translate with {ba&#39;o =
zenba}.</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote><div style>Similarly with a generic &quot;I =
differ from my previous self in that ...&quot;, you can use {ba&#39;o cenba=
}. Techniques like this, with a single {mi} whose *properties* vary in time=
, make more sense to me than local *referents*.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o</div></div=
></div></div>

<p></p>

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