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Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 19:57:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Time-(non)local sumti (was: Mixing tenses, on the
 beginners list)
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Well, you may like the expression better, but it has nothing to do with wha=
t there is or is not.


________________________________
 From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Time-(non)local sumti (was: Mixing tenses, on the beg=
inners list)
=20


On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote=
:

On 2 May 2013 22:23, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>But you seem to have answered this question.=A0 As xorxes notes, our formu=
la 'lo ca me mi' or whatever, clearly indicates a temporally segmented mi, =
'mi' alone leaves the matter open.=A0 So how do we speak of the perduring m=
i?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>I'd say that 'mi' alone is the perduring mi, and that {lo me mi} is roughl=
y equivalent to it (minus lo's ability to retrieve only salient referents /=
 not-quite-referents, i.e. me-mi goo). Tacking extra specifications onto lo=
 me mi is what gets at particular, time-local referents.
>
>
>On a philosophical level, I'm not too fond of the idea of time-locally del=
imited sumti, and I've always found ways to rephrase. A longlasting problem=
 was "I'm better at swimming than I used to be," which, rather than with {z=
madu}, I translate with {ba'o zenba}.
Similarly with a generic "I differ from my previous self in that ...", you =
can use {ba'o cenba}. Techniques like this, with a single {mi} whose *prope=
rties* vary in time, make more sense to me than local *referents*.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Well, you =
may like the expression better, but it has nothing to do with what there is=
 or is not.</span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times n=
ew roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-fam=
ily: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=
=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=
=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ian Johnson &lt;blindbravado@gmail.=
com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@goo=
glegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> T=
hursday, May 2, 2013 9:35 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subj=
ect:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Time-(non)local sumti (was: Mixing tenses, on =
the beginners list)<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1984867710"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:32 PM,=
 Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com">=
nictytan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"yiv1984867710gmai=
l_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1984867710gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"yiv1984867710gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"yiv1984867710im">On 2 May 2013 22:23, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"yiv1984867710gmail_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1984867710gm=
ail_quote"><div class=3D"yiv1984867710im">

<blockquote class=3D"yiv1984867710gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;"><div><span>But yo=
u seem to have answered this question.&nbsp; As xorxes notes, our formula '=
lo ca me mi' or whatever, clearly indicates a temporally segmented mi, 'mi'=
 alone leaves the matter open.&nbsp; So how do we speak of the perduring mi=
?<br>


</span></div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><=
div>I'd say that 'mi' alone is the perduring mi, and that {lo me mi} is rou=
ghly equivalent to it (minus lo's ability to retrieve only salient referent=
s / not-quite-referents, i.e. me-mi goo). Tacking extra specifications onto=
 lo me mi is what gets at particular, time-local referents.</div>


<div><br></div><div>On a philosophical level, I'm not too fond of the idea =
of time-locally delimited sumti, and I've always found ways to rephrase. A =
longlasting problem was "I'm better at swimming than I used to be," which, =
rather than with {zmadu}, I translate with {ba'o zenba}.</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"">Similarly with a generic "I =
differ from my previous self in that ...", you can use {ba'o cenba}. Techni=
ques like this, with a single {mi} whose *properties* vary in time, make mo=
re sense to me than local *referents*.</div>
<div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">mi'e la latro'a mu'o</div></div><=
/div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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