Received: from mail-oa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.219.62]:65488) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UYA1Z-0003bb-5Z for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 03 May 2013 00:03:26 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id g12sf373752oah.17 for ; Fri, 03 May 2013 00:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IB0wyNPTWAoZjkNhKHfvQrKbb6V3ecKcJdK6FoiYuJM=; b=Gm4uwHaTRNepJIdLgoVTeEZVT+5PADyvvMsWZbXOAfzMVf6mD7S+8lNGZQJhByk02l uItXSQIlifIdS694JwTAzntp/qB4wvjHK774gc2sMs+fpGFa3Pa8B1zUFeNYodYdt1Cr JqnGQmQ8UbIz+PCa7WJl4JlntKvGCPMOn7how2eGLPtEXfFIdd4jxZ7gpNanlyc+s+z1 +1W+kpKmZy8j3Fveq/yv5ai1Y2BMSK6uapXRyPRYWu489SauG5U4++HFMVcyD8Yb/Rba OY530zIrgZcdUiqWEhC8lQleZOgQ9+EyNFN6HsakVObnvMkKWNv+eR2anedVhax19npL wEwQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IB0wyNPTWAoZjkNhKHfvQrKbb6V3ecKcJdK6FoiYuJM=; b=whySpz2XkGANls2xtlc5QlXSu9OEgnVnz677qyehGNhv6g5eQACcv+FRbtCbLaft6+ hjy6VgxJHIzJfWMsz8e4d0sJ/KjN88g03KQYQirK1vdjly1k6UEwXBg070MSEZxd0qxJ MKrPCpBV1dr5yqrMXqv5ov3yu1xlXAKsRLWRo8J+6bYwR0lpkLZaBeq+41MMdFcwvNX4 Izy0bOhWC0Cb+pI+6wmipzsrKLj44RYcuk2twbjZ+DvZqCpjMJoOxYSmqa7cMtUbA7Ku 3CdHbrrBsrDjmW8Ynwb2EQtUR54tis8S0DtZGRt96YpyHRKAzNtCbmW5IYRGBuh2PsIS ptWA== X-Received: by 10.49.109.34 with SMTP id hp2mr873346qeb.33.1367564589800; Fri, 03 May 2013 00:03:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.49.229 with SMTP id x5ls1484686qen.96.gmail; Fri, 03 May 2013 00:03:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.53.6 with SMTP id x6mr864388qeo.11.1367564588424; Fri, 03 May 2013 00:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 00:03:08 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <597c088d-cfd8-4333-92d7-ecdf2e5f3b42@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <20130502222757.GZ10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20130429163424.GP10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <517EA2D8.4000206@gmx.de> <20130430195657.GM10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <17c5855e-538c-41bd-b1d9-ce5fc57fe533@googlegroups.com> <20130501105413.GP10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <51811B75.4030106@lojban.org> <20130502222757.GZ10220@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Subject: Re: Robin does the xorban (was Re: [lojban] Baby Words: "you're right" and orders.) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_504_4448319.1367564588136" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_504_4448319.1367564588136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, May 3, 2013 2:27:58 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote: > > On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 09:41:09AM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and > Founder - LLG wrote: > > Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > >On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 12:43:14AM -0700, la gleki wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:56:57 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote: > > >>> > > >>>On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 06:42:00PM +0200, selpa'i wrote: > > >>>>la .camgusmis. cu cusku di'e > > >>>>>1. How would you mark a {ko} that's an order? I use {e'o} for > > >>>>>requests. For "You must do this!" I've been using {ga'i}, but > > >>>>>it's a tad unsatisfying. > > >>>> > > >>>>The currently proposed BPFK meaning for {.e'i} is just that. > > >>>>{.e'i} becomes an irrealis attitudinal marking a command/order. > > >>>>Although this may seem like a big change to definition of the > > >>>>word, it seems to be the only way to express orders of this kind, > > >>>>so: > > >>>> > > >>>>{.e'i do na broda} > > >>>> > > >>>>I'm not sure I am 100% behind this definition, but the above > > >>>>argument speaks for it. > > >>> > > >>>Given the incredibly tiny usage of {.e'i} according to the corpus > > >>>application (250 uses on IRC, and essentially none elsewhere, > > >>>especially if you ignore xorxes' usages since this was his > > >>>tinkering), I've decided that my household dialect will, in fact, > > >>>use {.e'i} as a command imperative. > > >>> > > >> > > >>who has approved of it: > > >>1.camgusmis > > >>2.gleki > > >> > > >>who is against it: > > >>1. > > > > > >There are many people who would have been against it back in the > > >day, but the only one I know who is still active is Arnt. > > > > My interpretation of .e'i would have been that it would be expressed > > by someone who is under orders, not giving orders. > > Yes, the point here is that this is a change to the language. This > is why I used the word "dialect". > > The motivation for the change is that {.e'i} is almost totally > unused then tell me how can i differentiate between "I had to/was under constraint/was forced to do that" and "I should do that" and "I should have done that". , it overlaps with {.ei}, and the other things in that > category, like {.e'o}, are other-directed. > > -Robin > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_504_4448319.1367564588136 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, May 3, 2013 2:27:58 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 09:41:09AM -0= 400, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 12:43:14AM -0700, la gleki wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:56:57 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell= wrote:
> >>>
> >>>On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 06:42:00PM +0200, selpa'i wrot= e:
> >>>>la .camgusmis. cu cusku di'e
> >>>>>1.  How would you mark a {ko} that's an o= rder?  I use {e'o} for
> >>>>>requests.  For "You must do this!" I've b= een using {ga'i}, but
> >>>>>it's a tad unsatisfying.
> >>>>
> >>>>The currently proposed BPFK meaning for {.e'i} is = just that.
> >>>>{.e'i} becomes an irrealis attitudinal marking a c= ommand/order.
> >>>>Although this may seem like a big change to defini= tion of the
> >>>>word, it seems to be the only way to express order= s of this kind,
> >>>>so:
> >>>>
> >>>>{.e'i do na broda}
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm not sure I am 100% behind this definition, but= the above
> >>>>argument speaks for it.
> >>>
> >>>Given the incredibly tiny usage of {.e'i} according to= the corpus
> >>>application (250 uses on IRC, and essentially none els= ewhere,
> >>>especially if you ignore xorxes' usages since this was= his
> >>>tinkering), I've decided that my household dialect wil= l, in fact,
> >>>use {.e'i} as a command imperative.
> >>>
> >>
> >>who has approved of it:
> >>1.camgusmis
> >>2.gleki
> >>
> >>who is against it:
> >>1.
> >
> >There are many people who would have been against it back in t= he
> >day, but the only one I know who is still active is Arnt.
>=20
> My interpretation of .e'i would have been that it would be express= ed
> by someone who is under orders, not giving orders.  

Yes, the point here is that this is a change to the language.  Thi= s
is why I used the word "dialect".

The motivation for the change is that {.e'i} is almost totally
unused

then tell me how can i different= iate between "I had to/was under constraint/was forced to do that"  an= d "I should do that" and "I should have done that".

, it overlaps with {.ei}, and the= other things in that
category, like {.e'o}, are other-directed.

-Robin

--
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