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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:18:22 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Robin retry: commands.
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In USA military, legally even requests, unless specifically stated as
optional, are considered orders, and must be obeyed. If you believe in that
paradigm.

stevo


On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 12:00 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Well, yes, but only because the issuer of a command, even if totally
> lacking in self-confidence, etc., has the power to bring down evil upon you
> if you don't obey.  Obeying is always optional but sometimes the
> consequences (perceived expected) of exercising that option are
> unacceptable.  But the order given to a CO by a general is no less an order
> for the fact that the CO does not obey.  Nothing matters here but
> grammatical form and power, though power may suggest certain modifications
> of form: a plea should not be peremptory surely nor (see Pinafore) a
> command too polite.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 5, 2013, at 9:57, Betsemes <betsemes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:09 AM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >> Oops! "orderer", not "ordered" (autocorrect kicks in at weird places).
> In any case, the point is that the attitude of the one uttering the
> imperative has nothing to do with whether it is a command or not; that is
> an objective power calculation (with some fine print, perhaps).  Similarly
> for requests and pleas.  Demands are somewhat different, but still not much
> about attitudes, etc.
> >
> > Okay, I see what you're saying which is mostly what I'm trying to say.
> > The whole thread is dealing with attitudes; hauteur, constraint, etc.
> > and to the extent of my knowledge, attitude is of little importance
> > for a command to be a command. To me, self-confidence is key to a good
> > commander and yet nobody was dealing with that. A command can be
> > delivered in a relaxed manner too.
> >
> > My whole point is I think an attitudinal is not the way to go to mark
> > a command as a command and not a request. But this is an opinion of
> > mine. My personal take on this is that the difference between a
> > command and a request is that carrying out a request is optional,
> > carrying out a command is a requirement.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "lojban" group.
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> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >
> >
>
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>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">In USA military, legally even requests, unless specificall=
y stated as optional, are considered orders, and must be obeyed. If you bel=
ieve in that paradigm.=A0<div><br></div><div style>stevo</div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra">

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 12:00 PM, John E.=
 Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">

Well, yes, but only because the issuer of a command, even if totally lackin=
g in self-confidence, etc., has the power to bring down evil upon you if yo=
u don&#39;t obey. =A0Obeying is always optional but sometimes the consequen=
ces (perceived expected) of exercising that option are unacceptable. =A0But=
 the order given to a CO by a general is no less an order for the fact that=
 the CO does not obey. =A0Nothing matters here but grammatical form and pow=
er, though power may suggest certain modifications of form: a plea should n=
ot be peremptory surely nor (see Pinafore) a command too polite.<br>


<br>
Sent from my iPad<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On May 5, 2013, at 9:57, Betsemes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:betsemes@gmail.com"=
>betsemes@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:09 AM, John E. Clifford &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Oops! &quot;orderer&quot;, not &quot;ordered&quot; (autocorrect ki=
cks in at weird places). In any case, the point is that the attitude of the=
 one uttering the imperative has nothing to do with whether it is a command=
 or not; that is an objective power calculation (with some fine print, perh=
aps). =A0Similarly for requests and pleas. =A0Demands are somewhat differen=
t, but still not much about attitudes, etc.<br>


&gt;<br>
&gt; Okay, I see what you&#39;re saying which is mostly what I&#39;m trying=
 to say.<br>
&gt; The whole thread is dealing with attitudes; hauteur, constraint, etc.<=
br>
&gt; and to the extent of my knowledge, attitude is of little importance<br=
>
&gt; for a command to be a command. To me, self-confidence is key to a good=
<br>
&gt; commander and yet nobody was dealing with that. A command can be<br>
&gt; delivered in a relaxed manner too.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; My whole point is I think an attitudinal is not the way to go to mark<=
br>
&gt; a command as a command and not a request. But this is an opinion of<br=
>
&gt; mine. My personal take on this is that the difference between a<br>
&gt; command and a request is that carrying out a request is optional,<br>
&gt; carrying out a command is a requirement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojba=
n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegr=
oups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?h=
l=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>=
.<br>
&gt; For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/op=
t_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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