Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.177;
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <CAHxnAmK7VEvD+7n1YB1hd4S0EqK0GBTOWRdG6fppAvfoPsFP4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130504201243.GE20411@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <51856E57.2010808@gmx.de> <20130504202515.GG20411@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CAHxnAm+NUxq=seQpKCgLT9Wmoouj4ypJMZeXBxNFDz3m3s8v_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55921D19-DB32-4D41-B6E9-1552B5BC9AB3@yahoo.com> <CAHxnAmKZTxe4Ps0H0WhVyY2k3WoiFi3=3zXsgRoW3EAg3jpJEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3A8DBDCA-994A-4A20-9BAD-A3A4F3561B49@yahoo.com> <CAHxnAmLZ0WLPyTWqfLj=dsh+kBDcWdkh+qmrVnEJNs9mteoCZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5F42DC95-D2C4-4B0D-B018-A4BC82AAFB06@yahoo.com> <CAHiXx=MzU2uukh7VfJsfOREStCkY3pBrDVKzCFghmRLumZA3Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxnAmK7VEvD+7n1YB1hd4S0EqK0GBTOWRdG6fppAvfoPsFP4w@mail.gmail.com>
From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 09:47:04 -0400
Message-ID: <CALm==BUm693hFg+hstkOmEDM16x_w=z56oJ8oJgp-06Bf1DCtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Robin retry: commands.
To: Lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a0e16cf098904dc0cf0ce
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--089e013a0e16cf098904dc0cf0ce
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

If I understand {ga'i} correctly, it marks the referent to be of lower
> rank. I don't think this is appropriate to mark it as a command.
>

{ga'i} marks the speaker to be higher rank; {ga'i nai} marks the speaker to
be lower rank.


>
> {le'o}, according to jbovlaste is aggressiveness. If the commander
> feels the need to be aggressive when giving commands, that hints to
> some kind of inner shortcoming, so that he feels he needs to give the
> command some additional force to compensate; and that makes it, in my
> opinion, not a universal way to mark a "ko-bridi" as a command.
>

I agree.

>
> {e'i} is "feeling constraint" according to jbovlaste. According to the
> Merrian-Webster dictionary (sorry, I'm not an English-native),
> "constraint" is:
>
> [...]
>
> This seems to be the way the one receiving the command should feel,
> not the commander's.
>

Yes, but the discussion is about whether to redefine (or at least to use
dialectically) {e'i} to be more in line with {e'o}, {e'u}, and {e'a}.

>
> According to jbovlaste, {e'o} means "attitudinal: request - negative
> request.". This doesn't look like a feeling, more like an intention;
> the speaker's intention to make a request. There might be a plethora
> of different feelings attached to this intention depending on the one
> making the request. This is what we need to mark a "ko-bridi" as a
> command. We need to clearly state the "ko-bridi" is a command.
>
> I'm no expert here, so I may be wrong, but my understanding on "ko
> broda" is it means "make {ko broda} true", either as a request, or as
> a command. The CLL makes a request explicit with "e'o ko broda".
>
> What about "e'onai ko broda"? {e'onai} means "negative request"
> according to jbovlaste. So what is a negative request? My naive
> interpretation:
>

> e'onai ko broda
> negative request, make "ko broda" true
> this is not a request, make "ko broda" true
> this is an order, make "ko broda" true
>
> The experts here can explain why I am wrong....
>

"negative request" seems to have been interpreted as "please don't" in the
few uses I read of the few uses I found (here: http://www.lojban.org/corpus/
)
The BPFK proposed revision is to make {e'o nai} an offer.
The problem with your logic for making {e'o nai} a command is that an
analogous argument can be made for {e'u nai}.


-- 
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--089e013a0e16cf098904dc0cf0ce
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
If I understand {ga&#39;i} correctly, it marks the referent to be of lower<=
br>
rank. I don&#39;t think this is appropriate to mark it as a command.<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>{ga&#39;i} marks the speaker to be higher ran=
k; {ga&#39;i nai} marks the speaker to be lower rank.<br>=A0<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">


<br>
{le&#39;o}, according to jbovlaste is aggressiveness. If the commander<br>
feels the need to be aggressive when giving commands, that hints to<br>
some kind of inner shortcoming, so that he feels he needs to give the<br>
command some additional force to compensate; and that makes it, in my<br>
opinion, not a universal way to mark a &quot;ko-bridi&quot; as a command.<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">


<br>
{e&#39;i} is &quot;feeling constraint&quot; according to jbovlaste. Accordi=
ng to the<br>
Merrian-Webster dictionary (sorry, I&#39;m not an English-native),<br>
&quot;constraint&quot; is:<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
This seems to be the way the one receiving the command should feel,<br>
not the commander&#39;s.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but the d=
iscussion is about whether to redefine (or at least to use dialectically) {=
e&#39;i} to be more in line with {e&#39;o}, {e&#39;u}, and {e&#39;a}.<br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
According to jbovlaste, {e&#39;o} means &quot;attitudinal: request - negati=
ve<br>
request.&quot;. This doesn&#39;t look like a feeling, more like an intentio=
n;<br>
the speaker&#39;s intention to make a request. There might be a plethora<br=
>
of different feelings attached to this intention depending on the one<br>
making the request. This is what we need to mark a &quot;ko-bridi&quot; as =
a<br>
command. We need to clearly state the &quot;ko-bridi&quot; is a command.<br=
>
<br>
I&#39;m no expert here, so I may be wrong, but my understanding on &quot;ko=
<br>
broda&quot; is it means &quot;make {ko broda} true&quot;, either as a reque=
st, or as<br>
a command. The CLL makes a request explicit with &quot;e&#39;o ko broda&quo=
t;.<br>
<br>
What about &quot;e&#39;onai ko broda&quot;? {e&#39;onai} means &quot;negati=
ve request&quot;<br>
according to jbovlaste. So what is a negative request? My naive<br>
interpretation:<br></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<br>
e&#39;onai ko broda<br>
negative request, make &quot;ko broda&quot; true<br>
this is not a request, make &quot;ko broda&quot; true<br>
this is an order, make &quot;ko broda&quot; true<br>
<br>
The experts here can explain why I am wrong....<br></blockquote><div><div><=
br></div><div>&quot;negative request&quot; seems to have been interpreted a=
s &quot;please don&#39;t&quot; in the few uses I read of the few uses I fou=
nd (here: <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/corpus/">http://www.lojban.org/c=
orpus/</a>)<br>

</div><div>The BPFK proposed revision is to make {e&#39;o nai} an offer.<br=
></div>The problem with your logic for making {e&#39;o nai} a command is th=
at an analogous argument can be made for {e&#39;u nai}.<br></div></div>

<br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .arpis.<br>
</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--089e013a0e16cf098904dc0cf0ce--