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To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c02::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6720ca4647a504dc15b54b X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b6720ca4647a504dc15b54b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6 May 2013 09:47, .arpis. wrote: > > > If I understand {ga'i} correctly, it marks the referent to be of lower >> rank. I don't think this is appropriate to mark it as a command. >> > > {ga'i} marks the speaker to be higher rank; {ga'i nai} marks the speaker > to be lower rank. > Actually, it marks rank of the speaker compared to the attached thing, which is a subtle distinction. e.g. {.i lo ga'i gerku cu melbi} has the dog marked as being the thing towards which the speaker feels higher. Although rank has a connection to the *ability* to give orders, typically, I wouldn't say that using {ga'i} is a *way* to give orders though. > > >> >> {le'o}, according to jbovlaste is aggressiveness. If the commander >> feels the need to be aggressive when giving commands, that hints to >> some kind of inner shortcoming, so that he feels he needs to give the >> command some additional force to compensate; and that makes it, in my >> opinion, not a universal way to mark a "ko-bridi" as a command. >> > > I agree. > I agree too. {le'o} is the kind of thing a store owner would say when kicking you out. The subtext is generally supposed to match up with the text in Lojban, which is why indicators exist. > >> {e'i} is "feeling constraint" according to jbovlaste. According to the >> Merrian-Webster dictionary (sorry, I'm not an English-native), >> "constraint" is: >> >> [...] >> >> >> This seems to be the way the one receiving the command should feel, >> not the commander's. >> > > Yes, but the discussion is about whether to redefine (or at least to use > dialectically) {e'i} to be more in line with {e'o}, {e'u}, and {e'a}. > In case we're taking votes, I vote in favour of redefining it. Dialectically, it is already used that way by the handful of typical IRC jbopre. > >> According to jbovlaste, {e'o} means "attitudinal: request - negative >> request.". This doesn't look like a feeling, more like an intention; >> the speaker's intention to make a request. There might be a plethora >> of different feelings attached to this intention depending on the one >> making the request. This is what we need to mark a "ko-bridi" as a >> command. We need to clearly state the "ko-bridi" is a command. > > I'm no expert here, so I may be wrong, but my understanding on "ko >> broda" is it means "make {ko broda} true", either as a request, or as >> a command. The CLL makes a request explicit with "e'o ko broda". >> >> What about "e'onai ko broda"? {e'onai} means "negative request" >> according to jbovlaste. So what is a negative request? My naive >> interpretation: >> > >> e'onai ko broda >> negative request, make "ko broda" true >> this is not a request, make "ko broda" true >> this is an order, make "ko broda" true >> >> The experts here can explain why I am wrong.... >> > > "negative request" seems to have been interpreted as "please don't" in the > few uses I read of the few uses I found (here: > http://www.lojban.org/corpus/) > The BPFK proposed revision is to make {e'o nai} an offer. > The problem with your logic for making {e'o nai} a command is that an > analogous argument can be made for {e'u nai}. > > > A command to "not do" ? Sounds like {.e'o do na broda}. Why should the attitudinal just "include negation". Sounds like an extremely pointless feature. The BPFK's idea seems best. {.i .e'onai do da pinxe} -> "Would you like something to drink?" .i mi'e la tsani mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b6720ca4647a504dc15b54b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6 May 2013 09:47, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau= @gmail.com> wrote:


If I understand {ga'i} correctly, it marks the referent to be of lower<= br> rank. I don't think this is appropriate to mark it as a command.

{ga'i} marks the speaker to be high= er rank; {ga'i nai} marks the speaker to be lower rank.

Actually, it marks rank = of the speaker compared to the attached thing, which is a subtle distinctio= n.

e.g. {.i lo ga'i gerku cu melbi= } has the dog marked as being the thing towards which the speaker feels hig= her.

Although rank has a connection to the *abil= ity* to give orders, typically, I wouldn't say that using {ga'i} is= a *way* to give orders though.
=A0
=A0

{le'o}, according to jbovlaste is aggressiveness. If the commander
feels the need to be aggressive when giving commands, that hints to
some kind of inner shortcoming, so that he feels he needs to give the
command some additional force to compensate; and that makes it, in my
opinion, not a universal way to mark a "ko-bridi" as a command.

I agree.

I agree too. {le'o} is the ki= nd of thing a store owner would say when kicking you out. The subtext is ge= nerally supposed to match up with the text in Lojban, which is why indicato= rs exist.
=A0

{e'i} is "feeling constraint" according to jbovlaste. Accordi= ng to the
Merrian-Webster dictionary (sorry, I'm not an English-native),
"constraint" is:

[...]


This seems to be the way the one receiving the command should feel,
not the commander's.

Yes, but= the discussion is about whether to redefine (or at least to use dialectica= lly) {e'i} to be more in line with {e'o}, {e'u}, and {e'a}.=

In case we&#= 39;re taking votes, I vote in favour of redefining it. Dialectically, it is= already used that way by the handful of typical IRC jbopre.
=A0

According to jbovlaste, {e'o} means "attitudinal: request - negati= ve
request.". This doesn't look like a feeling, more like an intentio= n;
the speaker's intention to make a request. There might be a plethora of different feelings attached to this intention depending on the one
making the request. This is what we need to mark a "ko-bridi" as = a
command. We need to clearly state the "ko-bridi" is a command.=A0
<= /div>
I'm no expert here, so I may be wrong, but my understanding on "ko=
broda" is it means "make {ko broda} true", either as a reque= st, or as
a command. The CLL makes a request explicit with "e'o ko broda&quo= t;.

What about "e'onai ko broda"? {e'onai} means "negati= ve request"
according to jbovlaste. So what is a negative request? My naive
interpretation:

e'onai ko broda
negative request, make "ko broda" true
this is not a request, make "ko broda" true
this is an order, make "ko broda" true

The experts here can explain why I am wrong....
=

"negative request" seems to have been interpr= eted as "please don't" in the few uses I read of the few uses= I found (here: http://www.lojban.org/corpus/)
The BPFK proposed revision is to make {e'o nai} an offer.
The problem with your logic for making {e'o nai} a command is th= at an analogous argument can be made for {e'u nai}.



A command to "not do" ? Sounds like {.e'o do na b= roda}. Why should the attitudinal just "include negation". Sounds= like an extremely pointless feature. The BPFK's idea seems best. {.i .= e'onai do da pinxe} -> "Would you like something to drink?"= ;

.i mi'e la tsani =A0mu'o

--
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