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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 10:06:56 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Higher-precedence Grouping with {bo} Is Impossible for
 TAG Sentence Connectives
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On 12 May 2013 12:56, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG <
lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

> Jacob Errington wrote:
>
>> The title says it all; the following won't parse:
>>
>> {.i broda .ija'ebo brode .iseri'abobo brodi}
>>
>> Semantically, it should parse meaning that {.i brode .iseri'abo brodi}
>> is the right-hand operand of {.ija'ebo}.
>>
>> On a related note, even-higher-precedence grouping with bo is not
>> possible for ijeks; the following won't parse:
>>
>> .i (broda .ijebo (brode .ijebo ((brodi .ijebobo brodo) .ijebo brodu)))
>>
>> Parentheses show intended parse.
>>
>> Furthermore, multiple {bo} are not allowed in tanru groupings:
>>
>> {.i (broda bo ((brode bo bo brodi) bo brodo))}
>>
>> It just seems like multiple {bo} is illegal across the board. Bug or
>> feature? Could this even be implemented? If it can, should we?
>>
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>>
>
>
> The first problem is that the parser does not allow multiple "bo"s. That
> is why it won't parse.  Additional bos would have no meaning, grammatical
> or otherwise.
>
> If you use only one bo in each .i compound, then all of them will group
> pairwise STRICTLY from the right.  So
>
>  .i broda .ija'e brode .iseri'abo brodi
>
> groups
>
> .i broda .i(ja'e brode .iseri'abo brodi)
>
>
> Note that you don't need a bo at all before the brode.
>
>
>
Actually, the {bo} is required before the {brode}; that's how TAG sentence
connectives are constructed {.i TAG bo}, else the tag would simply attach
to the selbri. Consider {.i pu broda} and{.i pu bo broda}.


>
> For your second example, this results:
>
> .i broda .ije( brode .ijebo( brodi .ijebo( brodo .ijebo brodu)))
>
> There is no provision using bo to make something other than the rightmost
> group first.
>
>
Yes. I don't want to achieve non-right grouping with bo. I'm just looking
to increase the  precedence


> If you want to mix left and right grouping, you need tu'e/tu'u forethought
> to mark the left groupings.  See CLL chapter 14 section 8 example 8.3
> through 8.6, which has good discussion of the whys and wherefores.  The
> notes after 8.6 specificall say that afterthought connectives with bo are
> primarily for simple expression of the special case of right grouping.
>  Anything really complex needs the bracketing that is possible with
> forethought connection (and I observe that human beings don't generally
> formulate complex groupings in afterthought).
>
> i  broda  .ije brode .ijetu'e brodi .ije brodo tu'u .ijebo brodu
>
> gives the bracketing you showed, with the brodi/brodo pair grouping left,
> marked by tu'e/tu'u.  If you only used bo then you would parenthesize
> sentences from the right (and again you don't need a bo before the brode).
>
> Sentence logical connection is a difficult problem, especially when you
> try to account for logical scope, so it is designed to be less flexible.
>
> More broadly, really complex constructs are more easily expressed using
> gi'ebo/gi'eke for right and left grouping in afterthought, and ga/gi for
> forethought.  Since these constructs connect multiple "bridi-tails" (selbri
> plus trailing sumti) within one .i sentence, for maximal flexibility, you
> have to but all the sumti including x1 after the selbri.  These are also
> described in that same chapter of CLL.
>

Yes, there're other ways of logical connection, including tu'e..tu'u and
ke..ke'e brackets, but I was just a bit surprised that multiple bo weren't
a feature of the language.


>
> lojbab
> --
> Bob LeChevalier    lojbab@lojban.org    www.lojban.org
> President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
>
>
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--001a11c2d994991f4704dcae264c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On 12 May 2013 12:56, Bob LeChevalier, President and Found=
er - LLG <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=
=3D"_blank">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>Jacob Errington wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The title says it all; the following won&#39;t parse:<br>
<br>
{.i broda .ija&#39;ebo brode .iseri&#39;abobo brodi}<br>
<br>
Semantically, it should parse meaning that {.i brode .iseri&#39;abo brodi}<=
br>
is the right-hand operand of {.ija&#39;ebo}.<br>
<br>
On a related note, even-higher-precedence grouping with bo is not<br>
possible for ijeks; the following won&#39;t parse:<br>
<br>
.i (broda .ijebo (brode .ijebo ((brodi .ijebobo brodo) .ijebo brodu)))<br>
<br>
Parentheses show intended parse.<br>
<br>
Furthermore, multiple {bo} are not allowed in tanru groupings:<br>
<br>
{.i (broda bo ((brode bo bo brodi) bo brodo))}<br>
<br>
It just seems like multiple {bo} is illegal across the board. Bug or<br>
feature? Could this even be implemented? If it can, should we?<br>
<br>
.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br></div></div>
The first problem is that the parser does not allow multiple &quot;bo&quot;=
s. That is why it won&#39;t parse. =A0Additional bos would have no meaning,=
 grammatical or otherwise.<br>
<br>
If you use only one bo in each .i compound, then all of them will group pai=
rwise STRICTLY from the right. =A0So<br>
<br>
=A0.i broda .ija&#39;e brode .iseri&#39;abo brodi<br>
<br>
groups<br>
<br>
.i broda .i(ja&#39;e brode .iseri&#39;abo brodi)<br>
<br>
<br>
Note that you don&#39;t need a bo at all before the brode.<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Actually, the {bo} is required before =
the {brode}; that&#39;s how TAG sentence connectives are constructed {.i TA=
G bo}, else the tag would simply attach to the selbri. Consider {.i pu brod=
a} and{.i pu bo broda}.</div>


<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
For your second example, this results:<br>
<br>
.i broda .ije( brode .ijebo( brodi .ijebo( brodo .ijebo brodu)))<br>
<br>
There is no provision using bo to make something other than the rightmost g=
roup first.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. I don&#39;t want to achieve non-r=
ight grouping with bo. I&#39;m just looking to increase the =A0precedence</=
div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


If you want to mix left and right grouping, you need tu&#39;e/tu&#39;u fore=
thought to mark the left groupings. =A0See CLL chapter 14 section 8 example=
 8.3 through 8.6, which has good discussion of the whys and wherefores. =A0=
The notes after 8.6 specificall say that afterthought connectives with bo a=
re primarily for simple expression of the special case of right grouping. =
=A0Anything really complex needs the bracketing that is possible with foret=
hought connection (and I observe that human beings don&#39;t generally form=
ulate complex groupings in afterthought).<br>


<br>
i =A0broda =A0.ije brode .ijetu&#39;e brodi .ije brodo tu&#39;u .ijebo brod=
u<br>
<br>
gives the bracketing you showed, with the brodi/brodo pair grouping left, m=
arked by tu&#39;e/tu&#39;u. =A0If you only used bo then you would parenthes=
ize sentences from the right (and again you don&#39;t need a bo before the =
brode).<br>


<br>
Sentence logical connection is a difficult problem, especially when you try=
 to account for logical scope, so it is designed to be less flexible.<br>
<br>
More broadly, really complex constructs are more easily expressed using gi&=
#39;ebo/gi&#39;eke for right and left grouping in afterthought, and ga/gi f=
or forethought. =A0Since these constructs connect multiple &quot;bridi-tail=
s&quot; (selbri plus trailing sumti) within one .i sentence, for maximal fl=
exibility, you have to but all the sumti including x1 after the selbri. =A0=
These are also described in that same chapter of CLL.<br>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Yes, there&#39;re other ways of logi=
cal connection, including tu&#39;e..tu&#39;u and ke..ke&#39;e brackets, but=
 I was just a bit surprised that multiple bo weren&#39;t a feature of the l=
anguage.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
lojbab<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- <br>
Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">lojbab@lojban.org</a> =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org" target=3D=
"_blank">www.lojban.org</a><br>
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.</font></span><div><=
div><br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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