Received: from mail-lb0-f190.google.com ([209.85.217.190]:34475) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UdZac-0006gD-8Q for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:22:12 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f190.google.com with SMTP id 10sf718066lbf.7 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=84RSXxFU0YTYk0GSBwOAz0crfE8xRPzlzCep3Q/vK20=; b=V6XHd4WigJLZsMfGUOZzxMXkCigg1i3zKmCmPTjct0hfJIt8LRlXwBLI/BVUYGjDgF lCNJDjEQT8FXtM87un1KsLrpMTk2UAWnVZbQHoPL5vKL5gYupBwQyY9RfZmB4s8JXg/g RueXLgdg+BxWuXA5heGIYbf3eQOsCbSdG/CCzIAOlkePpr73e18QDICnMVEaUIwGrFRx m4gEm1WmyUZwfToWxN/PXEHgvu4SyJIokV9qqZHd3CVdcRsXL2BozfvERnH8HiGBOcGN fa81Y440YQd/1TPl2PFrDcWzGxcrpce78c30hLipVpr7kgEPw7Qvsq9yKG5EAn4Z4tA3 fC1g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=84RSXxFU0YTYk0GSBwOAz0crfE8xRPzlzCep3Q/vK20=; b=PXa4p5HKjRZKIdQTFSe/AUbXXw2iA9yhgecJC5FJ8EK6JDcdvYldfnpFIeAnqcL6R1 lxuspNml/K/qzyEtYyXGzGuUdagPn6CS9uB74ooAf8VUlIq1Sy5yN2FpuVC1m6ONaVuD 6AoTXN0+6IxRDopvzNeNxbzDQZqq9c5UmDDBEXje4pvwj8lWonseS0OP/cI9sqHic/Jl iJ7AiJlnfdeC5oUZsDdqhnHlYBzhLEGUINJJu/TXZPUfugjH6KNqyO8UgcJ9XViMyJRD KMNOCs2g5IzlH2mvpcx8NPzO3bpboUBATcazDekNV/UaHXCHj8N2a+TAfZx0efzcQOQ5 mTBw== X-Received: by 10.180.8.74 with SMTP id p10mr15668wia.3.1368854506628; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.73.242 with SMTP id o18ls327393wiv.41.gmail; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.228.202 with SMTP id jf10mr6202977bkb.2.1368854506187; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com (mail-lb0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fc12si1202959bkc.1.2013.05.17.22.21.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.176; Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id x10so4998758lbi.7 for ; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.199.194 with SMTP id jm2mr22728173lbc.21.1368854505767; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.1.166 with HTTP; Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <5171110D.3010200@gmx.de> <3a8a2111-e2a8-4c40-bd66-66c6e26523b0@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 23:21:45 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] 'good or simple' vs 'good, or simple' From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c33a5290cb9104dcf74620 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c33a5290cb9104dcf74620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The problem is, of course, that you're trying to do something explicitly in Lojban that is done /implicitly/ in the English phrase "Would you like coffee or tea?" {.i do djica tu'a loi ckafi ji loi tcati} It should be noted that even in the English question, "both" and "neither" are still acceptable -though uncommon- answers. There is nothing about the English question that forbids a choice of "both" or "neither", it is merely social customs that makes such answers verboten. This very thing is talked about in the logical connectives section of the CLL. http://dag.github.io/cll/14/13/ It's also been discussed quite a bit in the tiki: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Do+you+want+coffee+or+tea%3F Basically, the gist is, if you want someone to choose amongst a set of mutually exclusive items, and you're using OR, you're asking the wrong question. What you should be saying in such situations is more akin to: "Choose one of: coffee, tea" .i.e'u cuxna lo pamei lo ckafi .e lo tcati On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 6:47 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > I'm not sure this is the same thing, but how does one distinguish in > Lojban between the ORs in "Coffee, or tea?", i.e., a choice between > alternatives, vs. the logical OR with truth values. > > stevo > > > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > >> I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "non-logical 'or'"? >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, iesk wrote: >> >>> ni'o la selpa'i ku cusku di'e >>> >ni'o ie lo tokpona cu xamgu gi'a sampu >>> >>> ni'o sei banbau se'u zo gi'a logji valsi .i mi te smuni lodo jufra la'e >>> zoi. aficalanguidjavlajbanistan. Toki Pona is good or simple >>> .aficalanguidjavlajbanistan. mu'a .i ti'e lo si'o xamgu keiku ju'e lo si'o >>> sampu keiku se sidbo pa da lo selbau be lo tokpona sei dei jai nandu .i mi >>> kucli .ibo da'i ma xe fanva zoi. gic. Toki Pona is good, or simple .gic. >>> sei me'o slaka bu cu se jundi .i va'i za'e friti su'ore lo valsi fi'o se >>> tavla fi lo mintu >>> >>> {gi'a} is a logical connector. In the context of Selpa'i's sentence, a >>> non-logical 'or' could also be expected. Phrasing things differently to >>> encircle the intended meaning. How to do that in Lojban? >>> >>> Also, my use of {mintu} is nonsense, I fear (mintu ma?). >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c33a5290cb9104dcf74620 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The problem is, of course, that you're = trying to do something explicitly in Lojban that is done /implicitly/ in the English phrase "Would you= =20 like coffee or tea?" {.i do djica tu'a loi ckafi ji loi tcati}
=
It should be noted that even in the English question, "both" = and "neither" are=20 still acceptable -though uncommon- answers. There is nothing about the Engl= ish question that forbids a choice of "both" or "neither&quo= t;, it is merely social customs that makes such answers verboten.

This very thing is talked about in the logical connectives section of the C= LL.

http://dag.github.io= /cll/14/13/

It's also been discussed quite a bit in th= e tiki:

htt= p://www.lojban.org/tiki/Do+you+want+coffee+or+tea%3F

Basic= ally, the gist is, if you want someone to choose amongst a set of mutually = exclusive items, and you're using OR, you're asking the wrong quest= ion.

What you should be saying in such situations is more akin to: &qu= ot;Choose one of: coffee, tea"

.i.e'u cuxna lo pamei lo cka= fi .e lo tcati



On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 6:47 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>= wrote:
I'm not sure this is the same thing, but how does one = distinguish in Lojban between the ORs in "Coffee, or tea?", i.e.,= a choice between alternatives, vs. the logical OR with truth values.=A0
stevo


On Fri, May 17, = 2013 at 4:21 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 I'm not quite sure = what you mean by a "non-logical 'or'"?
=A0--gejyspa


On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, iesk &l= t;pa.fae@gmx.de><= /span> wrote:
ni'o la selpa'i ku cusku di'e >ni'o ie lo tokpona cu xamgu gi'a sampu

ni'o sei banbau se'u zo gi'a logji valsi =A0.i mi te smuni lodo= jufra la'e zoi. aficalanguidjavlajbanistan. Toki Pona is good or simpl= e .aficalanguidjavlajbanistan. mu'a =A0.i ti'e lo si'o xamgu ke= iku ju'e lo si'o sampu keiku se sidbo pa da lo selbau be lo tokpona= sei dei jai nandu =A0.i mi kucli .ibo da'i ma xe fanva zoi. gic. Toki = Pona is good, or simple .gic. sei me'o slaka bu cu se jundi .i va'i= za'e friti su'ore lo valsi fi'o se tavla fi lo mintu

{gi'a} is a logical connector. In the context of Selpa'i's sent= ence, a non-logical 'or' could also be expected. Phrasing things di= fferently to encircle the intended meaning. How to do that in Lojban?

Also, my use of {mintu} is nonsense, I fear (mintu ma?).

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--
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=A0
=A0

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=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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