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Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 09:36:43 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] 'good or simple' vs 'good, or simple'
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:21 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> The problem is, of course, that you're trying to do something explicitly
> in Lojban that is done /implicitly/ in the English phrase "Would you like
> coffee or tea?" {.i do djica tu'a loi ckafi ji loi tcati}
>
> It should be noted that even in the English question, "both" and "neither"
> are still acceptable -though uncommon- answers. There is nothing about the
> English question that forbids a choice of "both" or "neither", it is merely
> social customs that makes such answers verboten.
>
> This very thing is talked about in the logical connectives section of the
> CLL.
>
> http://dag.github.io/cll/14/13/
>
> It's also been discussed quite a bit in the tiki:
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Do+you+want+coffee+or+tea%3F
>
> Basically, the gist is, if you want someone to choose amongst a set of
> mutually exclusive items, and you're using OR, you're asking the wrong
> question.
>
> What you should be saying in such situations is more akin to: "Choose one
> of: coffee, tea"
>
> .i.e'u cuxna lo pamei lo ckafi .e lo tcati
>
You shouldn't have logical "and" there; I concede that the irrealis
attitudinal scope can be argued to fix it, but it's more weird than it
needs to be. {.e'o cuxna pa da lo ckafi ce lo tcati} (or, in the idiom that
doesn't think sets matter in everyday discourse, {.e'o cuxna pa da lo ckafi
joi lo tcati}).

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:21 AM, Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>The problem =
is, of course, that you&#39;re trying to do something explicitly
 in Lojban that is done /implicitly/ in the English phrase &quot;Would you=
=20
like coffee or tea?&quot; {.i do djica tu&#39;a loi ckafi ji loi tcati}<br>=
<br>It should be noted that even in the English question, &quot;both&quot; =
and &quot;neither&quot; are=20
still acceptable -though uncommon- answers. There is nothing about the Engl=
ish question that forbids a choice of &quot;both&quot; or &quot;neither&quo=
t;, it is merely social customs that makes such answers verboten.<br><br>

This very thing is talked about in the logical connectives section of the C=
LL.<br><br><a href=3D"http://dag.github.io/cll/14/13/" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://dag.github.io/cll/14/13/</a><br><br></div>It&#39;s also been discussed=
 quite a bit in the tiki:<br>

<br><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Do+you+want+coffee+or+tea%3F" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Do+you+want+coffee+or+tea%3F</a><=
br><br></div>Basically, the gist is, if you want someone to choose amongst =
a set of mutually exclusive items, and you&#39;re using OR, you&#39;re aski=
ng the wrong question.<br>

<br></div>What you should be saying in such situations is more akin to: &qu=
ot;Choose one of: coffee, tea&quot;<br><br>.i.e&#39;u cuxna lo pamei lo cka=
fi .e lo tcati<br></div></blockquote><div>You shouldn&#39;t have logical &q=
uot;and&quot; there; I concede that the irrealis attitudinal scope can be a=
rgued to fix it, but it&#39;s more weird than it needs to be. {.e&#39;o cux=
na pa da lo ckafi ce lo tcati} (or, in the idiom that doesn&#39;t think set=
s matter in everyday discourse, {.e&#39;o cuxna pa da lo ckafi joi lo tcati=
}).<br>
<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o <br></div></div><br></div><=
/div>

<p></p>

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