Received: from mail-lb0-f183.google.com ([209.85.217.183]:50306) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UdhKd-0001gw-5u for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:38:13 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f183.google.com with SMTP id w20sf745382lbh.0 for ; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vhiGPtYTtfe52r7lLafnM4ReAjXWe8Dl5kggOPfYcKk=; b=XdXK5dwEBTDyb6Tyv4jEs9HG3/pTYAXL077AbCJcaa+t69nZsKk9WA2tu6ACGxSaCN 8fYTjA6+a/p/Orgc5ivY1yB5+A8MWt3j9uR/KuOFyRiaJlqsvt2hFpqkay37dFBBfLNl DqvEJVU0wUu+uoPTSU4BdSwlcfk32V0T4rZjM6LWF+7XG+wkPKgMVsjzPIkyi98zjija 039h+nWg/r+kgomKQIqe0kyPVzEwQgwiJCAdLNMjui3huEIYhy0ksH0CmqI6wXLc20/A d//amrOsMBqVxXDx/LTi06uoBxSKKGC8lWtfmFn7G5DauF4oUxXJErWCf3LWUntzjJjw F7DA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vhiGPtYTtfe52r7lLafnM4ReAjXWe8Dl5kggOPfYcKk=; b=A03j44z5EbR3LJ8guo+w7+vUxu0bPkv3hXtSsH60Ma6u3LfKhIIt3dGx8dyAbTO4D2 b/t5t2pI0BAfrrBjjZdTBOKVpp1x4g8Pzjo6tpFBnU4HwauYlR563Q47blfuMWUfReYL DgVJCsS6HD4eUgJc79EYF+xscnyWxq34N6zKYHOEgMO/vNmB724iQUeZBn4f7jeaQjVP onIN56lctNyo0lHls/IzeMBbx/Xc6ZDdn1xx8x4Id6B6W3/vLkzlLxOD0+MtH4gX0zUd is6ig1zIlxg8hteK7rpqJpZZv1RXClAUz199CdiWLoV+WfuU+h/DRlx+gD+K00JxQNkL ngvA== X-Received: by 10.180.198.100 with SMTP id jb4mr92843wic.14.1368884267533; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.36.77 with SMTP id o13ls395045wij.22.gmail; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.205.8.68 with SMTP id or4mr6242492bkb.1.1368884266917; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f169.google.com (mail-lb0-f169.google.com [209.85.217.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9si1323070bki.2.2013.05.18.06.37.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.169; Received: by mail-lb0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 10so5289212lbf.14 for ; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.210.101 with SMTP id mt5mr5909591lbc.85.1368884266526; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.1.166 with HTTP; Sat, 18 May 2013 06:37:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <5171110D.3010200@gmx.de> <3a8a2111-e2a8-4c40-bd66-66c6e26523b0@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 07:37:46 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] 'good or simple' vs 'good, or simple' From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3bbc871f05c04dcfe348a X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c3bbc871f05c04dcfe348a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I just copied it directly from the tiki page. You should voice your concerns there. On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 1:21 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> The problem is, of course, that you're trying to do something explicitly >> in Lojban that is done /implicitly/ in the English phrase "Would you like >> coffee or tea?" {.i do djica tu'a loi ckafi ji loi tcati} >> >> It should be noted that even in the English question, "both" and >> "neither" are still acceptable -though uncommon- answers. There is nothing >> about the English question that forbids a choice of "both" or "neither", it >> is merely social customs that makes such answers verboten. >> >> This very thing is talked about in the logical connectives section of the >> CLL. >> >> http://dag.github.io/cll/14/13/ >> >> It's also been discussed quite a bit in the tiki: >> >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Do+you+want+coffee+or+tea%3F >> >> Basically, the gist is, if you want someone to choose amongst a set of >> mutually exclusive items, and you're using OR, you're asking the wrong >> question. >> >> What you should be saying in such situations is more akin to: "Choose one >> of: coffee, tea" >> >> .i.e'u cuxna lo pamei lo ckafi .e lo tcati >> > You shouldn't have logical "and" there; I concede that the irrealis > attitudinal scope can be argued to fix it, but it's more weird than it > needs to be. {.e'o cuxna pa da lo ckafi ce lo tcati} (or, in the idiom that > doesn't think sets matter in everyday discourse, {.e'o cuxna pa da lo ckafi > joi lo tcati}). > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c3bbc871f05c04dcfe348a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just copied it directly from the tiki page. You should v= oice your concerns there.


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Ian Johnson <b= lindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:



On Sat, May 18, 20= 13 at 1:21 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
The problem = is, of course, that you're trying to do something explicitly in Lojban that is done /implicitly/ in the English phrase "Would you= =20 like coffee or tea?" {.i do djica tu'a loi ckafi ji loi tcati}
=
It should be noted that even in the English question, "both" = and "neither" are=20 still acceptable -though uncommon- answers. There is nothing about the Engl= ish question that forbids a choice of "both" or "neither&quo= t;, it is merely social customs that makes such answers verboten.

This very thing is talked about in the logical connectives section of the C= LL.

ht= tp://dag.github.io/cll/14/13/

It's also been discussed= quite a bit in the tiki:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Do+you+want+coffee+or+tea%3F<= br>
Basically, the gist is, if you want someone to choose amongst = a set of mutually exclusive items, and you're using OR, you're aski= ng the wrong question.

What you should be saying in such situations is more akin to: &qu= ot;Choose one of: coffee, tea"

.i.e'u cuxna lo pamei lo cka= fi .e lo tcati
You shouldn't have logi= cal "and" there; I concede that the irrealis attitudinal scope ca= n be argued to fix it, but it's more weird than it needs to be. {.e'= ;o cuxna pa da lo ckafi ce lo tcati} (or, in the idiom that doesn't thi= nk sets matter in everyday discourse, {.e'o cuxna pa da lo ckafi joi lo= tcati}).

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

<= /div>

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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