Received: from mail-we0-f186.google.com ([74.125.82.186]:52843) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UeoEX-0003qS-6z for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:22 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f186.google.com with SMTP id n5sf98597wev.3 for ; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VRi6gcEzU6+I3hKleYyz96jLO/xRqetglmWtOys+uxg=; b=MG4xaPq/x7Nu4GXS7YY81bTt59xSkepkvK06wYsZksV0P97vROgKdHhAigrkKlJNg6 AMCOkgwNsNaRa8pfYN0CF4arAw29ilSecEixpeSCTy6XDDfsCXT4nTxJGEoflNx+M0MP DovUE6pnmyOMKQWKtB0jipMiwHFtCS5+sznvvCLnjPl7ZUItyqCp3F76G0c8BeeyJbNp x8FlFUgR16vwWALWsBav0nqjQd5XFd3yfeCkz8PMwNDP/yp7DCxRxk2GnCL1OAM0tg5G T7ghGP0chww6AkvLKRYlfmC81PrJKveO4ugFMquuuB0rKMoMsllWFfikoXtK6C++bB5e SioQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VRi6gcEzU6+I3hKleYyz96jLO/xRqetglmWtOys+uxg=; b=MmoydrQiIs8pP16wfvI4DkrrjgGjS6Ijgig6T/YT+7y4HlJMCJc3sociNm/xdycFaG DSSyR+Gw0UWx3Cbu5xvAYBLb6NpR3MUDcZZBwAdrHLg1SYbqKAi2K7I9k6DSW5foXV5G oNLMwSkYVJpGsNtxufcMBYWr5gr1wZl64dtow6yQChcSXjdNNaFqMnpHL+Ussj99TswX 8yA2hKrf/8NUAeqM++DAjWi/mG4ri8f1xRfUoY/19HiuYbroP0Kl7qPKTI7ATwHSCz2Z 9r4tFI8ngZuxOjdbusrvIKXTb09KaDOd5BvAuonDtEt5HyemMrnf986OeoSW9DZxowIe KaGQ== X-Received: by 10.180.104.73 with SMTP id gc9mr952438wib.9.1369149125307; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.78.3 with SMTP id x3ls1121354wiw.26.canary; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.205.8.68 with SMTP id or4mr270873bkb.1.1369149124775; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f178.google.com (mail-lb0-f178.google.com [209.85.217.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9si279380bki.2.2013.05.21.08.12.04 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.178; Received: by mail-lb0-f178.google.com with SMTP id w10so929124lbi.9 for ; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.27.132 with SMTP id t4mr1564560lag.46.1369149124525; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.1.166 with HTTP; Tue, 21 May 2013 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <519B8B71.90800@gmx.de> References: <20130520214048.GA3114@samsa.fritz.box> <20130520221213.GB3114@samsa.fritz.box> <519B59B4.8020404@lojban.org> <519B8B71.90800@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 09:12:04 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] questions about lojban From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160abe036445c04dd3bdf9f X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0160abe036445c04dd3bdf9f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 8:57 AM, selpa'i wrote: > la .aionys. cu cusku di'e > > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 7:55 AM, selpa'i wrote: > >> On 21.05.2013 13:25, Robert LeChevalier wrote: >> >>> selpa'i wrote: >>> >>>> That's exactly the part that got changed in December 2011, when the >>>> sentence "When an outer quantifier is used without an inner quantifier, >>>> ''lo'' can be omitted." was removed. This means that "PA broda = PA lo >>>> broda" *was* part of the original BPFK-approved proposal from '04. (the >>>> recent change wasn't followed by another round of voting of course) >>>> >>> >>> Who had the authority to make such a change? >>> >> >> xorxes made that change after being asked to do so. I think PC was >> complaining. >> >> >> If it isn't voted on, the change is not official, and as you can see, >>> people won't understand what you mean. That is WHY it is supposed to >>> be hard to make changes, and why they are supposed to be strictly >>> controlled. >>> >> >> Of course, but there is no institution left to vote on such things right >> now, is there? >> > > Yes, there is. It's called the BPFK. > > > The BPFK is out of business, that was my point. The BPFK is not in a state > where it can vote. > "Yes, there was. It was called the BPFK." > Yes it is. Post something that needs voting on to the list, those members who care will vote, those members who do not care will abstain. Voting is not a difficult thing. [snip] > > > I assume you posted the lengthy explanation about the BPFK's duties not to > educate me, but to explain it to the general audience on the beginners list. > A bit of both. > Whether or not this discussion belongs in the Beginner's list, > obviously the above information does, since what should be common knowledge > apparently isn't. > > > What should be common knowledge is not that there is such a thing as the > BPFK, but that it is dead now. It seems more useful to create a new > taskforce (it might end up having the same name, but certainly not the same > members) as soon as CLL1.1 is done. > Not active is not dead. There's nothing for the BPFK to do as long as the language freeze exists beyond doing that which is required to lift the freeze- documenting the language as is. The fact that documenting the language is dull and dreary grunt work that quickly makes anyone who is doing desire to do something else, and that therefore no one, BPFK member or not, is working on it, does not make the BPFK dead. And it isn't the CLL1.1 that's preventing any BPFK work from being done. It's the documentation of the language as is that's doing that. > > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0160abe036445c04dd3bdf9f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, May 21, 2013 at 8:57 AM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote= :
=20 =20 =20
la .aionys. cu cusku di'e
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 7:55 AM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:
On 21.05.2013 13:25, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
selpa'i wrote:
That's exactly the part that got changed in Decembe= r 2011, when the
sentence "When an outer quantifier is used without an inner quantifier,
''lo'' can be omitted." was remove= d. This means that "PA broda =3D PA lo
broda" *was* part of the original BPFK-approved proposal from '04. (the
recent change wasn't followed by another round of voting of course)

Who had the authority to make such a change?

xorxes made that change after being asked to do so. I think PC was complaining.


If it isn't voted on, the change is not official, and as you can see,
people won't understand what you mean. That is WHY it is supposed to
be hard to make changes, and why they are supposed to be strictly
controlled.

Of course, but there is no institution left to vote on such things right now, is there?

Yes, there is. It's called the BPFK.

The BPFK is out of business, that was my point. The BPFK is not in a state where it can vote.
"Yes, there was. It was called the BPFK."

Yes it is. Post something that needs voting on to th= e list, those members who care will vote, those members who do not care wil= l abstain. Voting is not a difficult thing.

[snip]

I assume you posted the lengthy explanation about the BPFK's duties not to educate me, but to explain it to the general audience on the beginners list.

A bit of both.
=20
Whether or not this discussion belongs in the Beginner's list, obviously the above information does, since what should be common knowledge apparently isn't.

What should be common knowledge is not that there is such a thing as the BPFK, but that it is dead now. It seems more useful to create a new taskforce (it might end up having the same name, but certainly not the same members) as soon as CLL1.1 is done.

Not active is not dead. There's nothing for the BPFK to= do as long as the language freeze exists beyond doing that which is requir= ed to lift the freeze- documenting the language as is. The fact that docume= nting the language is dull and dreary grunt work that quickly makes anyone = who is doing desire to do something else, and that therefore no one, BPFK m= ember or not, is working on it, does not make the BPFK dead.

And it isn't the CLL1.1 that's preventing any BPFK w= ork from being done. It's the documentation of the language as is that&= #39;s doing that.
=A0


mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--089e0160abe036445c04dd3bdf9f--