Received: from mail-fa0-f57.google.com ([209.85.161.57]:58385) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Uequ2-0005XL-Au for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:27 -0700 Received: by mail-fa0-f57.google.com with SMTP id m1sf117314fam.22 for ; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MFTNtVwE6tvMU6T5KlW/5exVSylTN2MmBP1KxUEg1uc=; b=sUrgKpBmzBhKqwD14Gfsy5MdaaXOx4Zc3Rxbf0L77AonsOrrEK2VUnVThFbT58GQhx 4TDL+7qf4VvK2wI6ZP2LWm4z9L//sP7D24ooDWYvDNV7ZBPMpnN5JCyrg7uL10BK/Nvh Q8KiHhLYQ3o1DPM0sQkozCyVShDwPqPCKwVIKJw4D9x1wgOg64M+0bVF0IcJ/52Euvxp OXNV8rPmJYrpBehBMN0jGyERj5FFlM6X1CWpZedSmF98TZiY85sGsbmESylP8yVSUk+O U+2oK87C32OZSr9AwfK+8wDnpIbNfn814erHY2Aoi18dkDymlsqjUHvQ9+x8KIqjLzOy Fp3w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MFTNtVwE6tvMU6T5KlW/5exVSylTN2MmBP1KxUEg1uc=; b=Dt2XLPFCo/T5ZVkxv/DcMNv7IR6KuRiJBQ/klz+82DS5WQ2mUspXF+wugalnwgcf/q M2ZOtexU5uBE5IitRwR4pTpt0gFlkCm0LtuylFBAxqkLfsvlcNAweRG7IfXx3i4hRvAR 96Rka5xphbDWvENhusdJcs8RN++6p7kSAk7zhag3UGI4azEVzyhXXXKwANxZpYzp/Ko3 fKTvQqu3T88DzHUtyb5oTdEIa5FWCtifs3pEdBS0Wsyhl0TG7WdJNk4B5DkKDK4mUbTj t8oVMUPm2eg/YSrozVvLC8lEc2oFSPgQk14k6APPMqTPVDCEHt2bFDkngOCFsh/eq9jP J0CA== X-Received: by 10.180.9.237 with SMTP id d13mr270371wib.5.1369159386948; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.103.67 with SMTP id fu3ls1175327wib.11.canary; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.205.8.68 with SMTP id or4mr338029bkb.1.1369159386513; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f171.google.com (mail-lb0-f171.google.com [209.85.217.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cm16si349704bkb.0.2013.05.21.11.03.06 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.171; Received: by mail-lb0-f171.google.com with SMTP id v20so1130815lbc.2 for ; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.27.132 with SMTP id t4mr1944812lag.46.1369159386032; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.1.166 with HTTP; Tue, 21 May 2013 11:03:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <519BB664.7010505@gmx.de> References: <20130520214048.GA3114@samsa.fritz.box> <20130520221213.GB3114@samsa.fritz.box> <519B59B4.8020404@lojban.org> <519B8B71.90800@gmx.de> <519B9D34.3010704@gmx.de> <1369156225.81761.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <519BB664.7010505@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 12:03:05 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] questions about lojban From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160abe0d86f8304dd3e4238 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0160abe0d86f8304dd3e4238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:01 PM, selpa'i wrote: > la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e > > Herein is the crux. What is Lojban? It is surely not the language off >> CLL or much like it; >> > > Surely not. > > > it is not that modified by xorlo (any of the dozen >> or so xorlos, not counting those by xorxes himself). >> > > xorlo is but a tiny fraction of what sets apart CLL-Lojban from Now-Lojban. > > > Honesty would have >> it extracted from all the text around, assuming that could be collected, >> but that is probably not a consistent corpus and certainly would not >> meet the requirements of being a loglang. Even the corpus of one >> Lojbanist is somewhat iffy. You have two choices: a new >> presecriptivism, which decides all issues and lays down the law in a >> tight program, (OK, three -- we could go back to CLL) or a free-for-all >> building to a new consensus and eventual formalization. >> > > In case of choice number 1, who would decide all the issues and lay down > the law? Robin AKA camgusmis AKA BDFL. > > > (In either case, {PA lo broda} is not the same as {PA broda}.) >> > > Right. I wouldn't call them equivalent, since obviously {PA lo broda} is > quantification over the referent(s) of {lo broda}, while {PA broda} never > goes through that step. It just happens that there are cases where it makes > no difference which one you use. When it does make a difference, it is > often an "anaphoric" use of {lo broda}, sometimes in a malgli way (when the > speaker unconsciously wants to do what {le} actually does). The difference > between the two expressions (or the lack thereof) hinges to some degree at > least on how {lo broda} is conceptualized; is it a group of indeterminate > number or is it {lo xo na'i broda} (that is, the concept of number just > doesn't apply to it until you explicitly specify number using an inner > quantifier) ?. > > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > . > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out > . > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0160abe0d86f8304dd3e4238 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, May 21, 2013 at 12:01 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrot= e:
la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e

Herein is the crux. =A0What is Lojban? =A0It is surely not the language off=
CLL or much like it;

Surely not.


it is not that modified by xorlo (any of the dozen
or so xorlos, not counting those by xorxes himself).

xorlo is but a tiny fraction of what sets apart CLL-Lojban from Now-Lojban.=


Honesty would have
it extracted from all the text around, assuming that could be collected, but that is probably not a consistent corpus and certainly would not
meet the requirements of being a loglang. =A0Even the corpus of one
Lojbanist is somewhat iffy. =A0You have two choices: a new
presecriptivism, which decides all issues and lays down the law in a
tight program, (OK, three -- we could go back to CLL) or a free-for-all
building to a new consensus and eventual formalization.

In case of choice number 1, who would decide all the issues and lay down th= e law?

Robin AKA camgusmis AKA BDFL.


(In either case, {PA lo broda} is not the same as {PA broda}.)

Right. I wouldn't call them equivalent, since obviously {PA lo broda} i= s quantification over the referent(s) of {lo broda}, while {PA broda} never= goes through that step. It just happens that there are cases where it make= s no difference which one you use. When it does make a difference, it is of= ten an "anaphoric" use of {lo broda}, sometimes in a malgli way (= when the speaker unconsciously wants to do what {le} actually does). The di= fference between the two expressions (or the lack thereof) hinges to some d= egree at least on how {lo broda} is conceptualized; is it a group of indete= rminate number or is it {lo xo na'i broda} (that is, the concept of num= ber just doesn't apply to it until you explicitly specify number using = an inner quantifier) ?.


mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
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https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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