Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.218 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.218;
References: <dee20715-897b-40fd-b3b1-292017750384@googlegroups.com> <20130520214048.GA3114@samsa.fritz.box> <CA+gZtgKmsBFMhcSuH4L4NMLSvq-u6u101x+brNT1eAwFDQFU9A@mail.gmail.com> <20130520221213.GB3114@samsa.fritz.box> <CA+gZtgKukqKxw6xcnA2kMbSd5cTp4PCkc+pq+-QwgLPCSFCR2Q@mail.gmail.com> <f03b55fef408e1a5c307cedec84557f5@plasmatix.com> <519B59B4.8020404@lojban.org> <ff1a6f01f9f4c084647a58733eeaa1eb@plasmatix.com> <CAMKwHj3psDe1bXsjQo9QPJt9vYohkrLT1ST1oFrYUtAbMsyiZg@mail.gmail.com> <519B8B71.90800@gmx.de> <CAMKwHj1-RUJy1JYYemDiCxbOe0fmCzuoWeOO9VHPOPtpOxTT_Q@mail.gmail.com> <519B9D34.3010704@gmx.de> <1369156225.81761.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <519BB664.7010505@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <1369170061.60970.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 14:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] questions about lojban
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <519BB664.7010505@gmx.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-6906265-1934306462-1369170061=:60970"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

---6906265-1934306462-1369170061=:60970
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

But xorlo is the only *official* difference (whatever that is worth, obviou=
sly).=A0 Your final comments raise the issue of what your xorlo is like -- =
clearly different from mine ("salient node ...") and apparently making {lo =
broda} applicable to things totally unlike brodas (which might, I suppose, =
be particularly bad cases of {le broda}).=A0 To be sure, many cases of {lo =
broda} are anaphoric in the sense that they renew an earlier reference to b=
rodas, but that is just what nouns repeated most often do.=A0 As to whether=
 numbers apply to lo broda, that depends upon what brodas are, I suppose, b=
ut pretty generally, given Lojban's implicit ontology, they are enumeratabl=
e,=A0=20


________________________________
 From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] questions about lojban
=20

la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> Herein is the crux.=A0 What is Lojban?=A0 It is surely not the language o=
ff
> CLL or much like it;

Surely not.

> it is not that modified by xorlo (any of the dozen
> or so xorlos, not counting those by xorxes himself).

xorlo is but a tiny fraction of what sets apart CLL-Lojban from Now-Lojban.

> Honesty would have
> it extracted from all the text around, assuming that could be collected,
> but that is probably not a consistent corpus and certainly would not
> meet the requirements of being a loglang.=A0 Even the corpus of one
> Lojbanist is somewhat iffy.=A0 You have two choices: a new
> presecriptivism, which decides all issues and lays down the law in a
> tight program, (OK, three -- we could go back to CLL) or a free-for-all
> building to a new consensus and eventual formalization.

In case of choice number 1, who would decide all the issues and lay down th=
e law?

> (In either case, {PA lo broda} is not the same as {PA broda}.)

Right. I wouldn't call them equivalent, since obviously {PA lo broda} is qu=
antification over the referent(s) of {lo broda}, while {PA broda} never goe=
s through that step. It just happens that there are cases where it makes no=
 difference which one you use. When it does make a difference, it is often =
an "anaphoric" use of {lo broda}, sometimes in a malgli way (when the speak=
er unconsciously wants to do what {le} actually does). The difference betwe=
en the two expressions (or the lack thereof) hinges to some degree at least=
 on how {lo broda} is conceptualized; is it a group of indeterminate number=
 or is it {lo xo na'i broda} (that is, the concept of number just doesn't a=
pply to it until you explicitly specify number using an inner quantifier) ?=
.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


---6906265-1934306462-1369170061=:60970
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">But xorlo is the only=
 *official* difference (whatever that is worth, obviously).&nbsp; Your fina=
l comments raise the issue of what your xorlo is like -- clearly different =
from mine ("salient node ...") and apparently making {lo broda} applicable =
to things totally unlike brodas (which might, I suppose, be particularly ba=
d cases of {le broda}).&nbsp; To be sure, many cases of {lo broda} are anap=
horic in the sense that they renew an earlier reference to brodas, but that=
 is just what nouns repeated most often do.&nbsp; As to whether numbers app=
ly to lo broda, that depends upon what brodas are, I suppose, but pretty ge=
nerally, given Lojban's implicit ontology, they are enumeratable,&nbsp; <br=
><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div
 style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: =
12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">=
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> selpa'i &lt;seladwa@=
gmx.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@=
googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b=
> Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:01 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">S=
ubject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] questions about lojb=
an<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt; Herein is the crux.&nbsp; What is Lojban?&=
nbsp; It is surely not the language off<br>&gt; CLL or much like it;<br><br=
>Surely not.<br><br>&gt; it is not that modified by xorlo (any of the dozen=
<br>&gt; or so xorlos, not counting those by xorxes himself).<br><br>xorlo =
is but a tiny fraction of what sets apart CLL-Lojban from Now-Lojban.<br><b=
r>&gt; Honesty would have<br>&gt; it extracted from all the text around, as=
suming that could be collected,<br>&gt; but that is probably not a consiste=
nt corpus and certainly would not<br>&gt; meet the requirements of being a =
loglang.&nbsp; Even the corpus of one<br>&gt; Lojbanist is somewhat iffy.&n=
bsp; You have two choices: a new<br>&gt; presecriptivism, which decides all=
 issues and lays down the law in a<br>&gt; tight program, (OK, three -- we =
could go back to CLL) or a free-for-all<br>&gt; building to a new consensus=
 and eventual formalization.<br><br>In case of choice number 1, who
 would decide all the issues and lay down the law?<br><br>&gt; (In either c=
ase, {PA lo broda} is not the same as {PA broda}.)<br><br>Right. I wouldn't=
 call them equivalent, since obviously {PA lo broda} is quantification over=
 the referent(s) of {lo broda}, while {PA broda} never goes through that st=
ep. It just happens that there are cases where it makes no difference which=
 one you use. When it does make a difference, it is often an "anaphoric" us=
e of {lo broda}, sometimes in a malgli way (when the speaker unconsciously =
wants to do what {le} actually does). The difference between the two expres=
sions (or the lack thereof) hinges to some degree at least on how {lo broda=
} is conceptualized; is it a group of indeterminate number or is it {lo xo =
na'i broda} (that is, the concept of number just doesn't apply to it until =
you explicitly specify number using an inner quantifier) ?.<br><br>mu'o mi'=
e la selpa'i<br><br>-- You received this message because you are
 subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from thi=
s group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymail=
to=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googl=
egroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, se=
nd email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lo=
jban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at =
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, visit <=
a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https=
://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> <=
/div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

---6906265-1934306462-1369170061=:60970--