Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 12:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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 <519D01D2.9010908@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Tags and bridi operators
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Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 02:35:14 UTC+9, selpa'i a =E9crit :
>
> la .guskant. cu cusku di'e=20
> > I am confused. I agree that this http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na=
=20
> > is applied to all BAI tags, but do the following bridi have the same=20
> > scope of {na}, or only (6c) and (6d) have wider scope of {na}, though=
=20
> > the four bridi seemingly have the same meaning?=20
> >=20
> > (6a) bau lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla=20
> > (6b) fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla=20
> > (6c) fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e na tavla=20
> > (6d) mi do zo'e lo jbobau na tavla=20
>
> The scope of {na} is the same in all those; it only scopes over the=20
> selbri. If you placed {na ku} in front, then the negation would have=20
> scope over {bau} and {fi'o ve tavla} in (6a) and (6b) respectively=20
> (whether or not it makes a difference). {fo} isn't tradionally=20
> considered a tag like all the others, so I assume it would be a=20
> "constant" tag. (6c) and (6d) should be the same.=20
>
>

{na} is a selbri tag in all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {fi'o ve=20
tavla}, is a bridi operator.
Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to {naku} at the beginning=
=20
of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole bridi in every case.=20
However, because of the problem shown in=20
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na , {na} is treated in the same way as=
=20
the other bridi operators: the earlier has wider scope. Then the four bridi=
=20
are equivalent to the following bridi:

(6a') bau lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
(6b') fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
(6c') naku zo'u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e tavla
(6d') naku zo'u mi do zo'e lo jbobau tavla

The scope of {na} seems different between ((6a'),(6b')) and ((6c'),(6d')).
=20

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<br><br>Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 02:35:14 UTC+9, selpa'i a =E9crit&nbsp;:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la .guskant. cu cusku di'e
<br>&gt; I am confused. I agree that this <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/=
tiki/scope+of+na" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<wbr>scope+o=
f+na</a>
<br>&gt; is applied to all BAI tags, but do the following bridi have the sa=
me
<br>&gt; scope of {na}, or only (6c) and (6d) have wider scope of {na}, tho=
ugh
<br>&gt; the four bridi seemingly have the same meaning?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; (6a) bau lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6b) fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6c) fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6d) mi do zo'e lo jbobau na tavla
<br>
<br>The scope of {na} is the same in all those; it only scopes over the=20
<br>selbri. If you placed {na ku} in front, then the negation would have=20
<br>scope over {bau} and {fi'o ve tavla} in (6a) and (6b) respectively=20
<br>(whether or not it makes a difference). {fo} isn't tradionally=20
<br>considered a tag like all the others, so I assume it would be a=20
<br>"constant" tag. (6c) and (6d) should be the same.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>{na} is a selbri tag in=
 all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {fi'o ve tavla}, is a bridi operat=
or.</div><div>Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to {naku} at=
 the beginning of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole bridi in ev=
ery case.&nbsp;</div><div>However, because of the problem shown in http://w=
ww.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na , {na} is treated in the same way as the oth=
er bridi operators: the earlier has wider scope. Then the four bridi are eq=
uivalent to the following bridi:</div><div><br></div><div>(6a') bau lo jbob=
au naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla</div><div>(6b') fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau naku =
zo'u mi do zo'e tavla</div><div>(6c') naku zo'u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e =
tavla</div><div>(6d') naku zo'u mi do zo'e lo jbobau tavla</div><div><br></=
div><div>The scope of {na} seems different between ((6a'),(6b')) and ((6c')=
,(6d')).</div><div>&nbsp;</div>

<p></p>

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