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Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 16:28:19 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgJFJx8b01Ca-XbJ=C4=GeHGFa13+z_JTwh2GrVdvHkXbA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Tags and bridi operators
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:53 PM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 02:35:14 UTC+9, selpa'i a =E9crit :
>
>> la .guskant. cu cusku di'e
>> > I am confused. I agree that this http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**
>> scope+of+na <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na>
>> > is applied to all BAI tags, but do the following bridi have the same
>> > scope of {na}, or only (6c) and (6d) have wider scope of {na}, though
>> > the four bridi seemingly have the same meaning?
>> >
>> > (6a) bau lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla
>> > (6b) fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla
>> > (6c) fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e na tavla
>> > (6d) mi do zo'e lo jbobau na tavla
>>
>> The scope of {na} is the same in all those; it only scopes over the
>> selbri. If you placed {na ku} in front, then the negation would have
>> scope over {bau} and {fi'o ve tavla} in (6a) and (6b) respectively
>> (whether or not it makes a difference). {fo} isn't tradionally
>> considered a tag like all the others, so I assume it would be a
>> "constant" tag. (6c) and (6d) should be the same.
>>
>>
>
> {na} is a selbri tag in all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {fi'o ve
> tavla}, is a bridi operator.
> Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to {naku} at the
> beginning of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole bridi in every
> case.
> However, because of the problem shown in
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na , {na} is treated in the same way
> as the other bridi operators: the earlier has wider scope. Then the four
> bridi are equivalent to the following bridi:
>
> (6a') bau lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
> (6b') fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
> (6c') naku zo'u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e tavla
> (6d') naku zo'u mi do zo'e lo jbobau tavla
>
> The scope of {na} seems different between ((6a'),(6b')) and ((6c'),(6d'))=
.
>
The "standard idiom" that I see on IRC for those that even use {na} as
selbri tcita anymore is basically xorxes' paragraph number 6.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, May 22, 2013 at 3:53 PM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gusni.kantu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br>Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 02:35:14 UTC+9,=
 selpa&#39;i a =E9crit=A0:<div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">
la .guskant. cu cusku di&#39;e
<br>&gt; I am confused. I agree that this <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/=
tiki/scope+of+na" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>scope=
+of+na</a>
<br>&gt; is applied to all BAI tags, but do the following bridi have the sa=
me
<br>&gt; scope of {na}, or only (6c) and (6d) have wider scope of {na}, tho=
ugh
<br>&gt; the four bridi seemingly have the same meaning?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; (6a) bau lo jbobau mi do zo&#39;e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6b) fi&#39;o ve tavla lo jbobau mi do zo&#39;e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6c) fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo&#39;e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6d) mi do zo&#39;e lo jbobau na tavla
<br>
<br>The scope of {na} is the same in all those; it only scopes over the=20
<br>selbri. If you placed {na ku} in front, then the negation would have=20
<br>scope over {bau} and {fi&#39;o ve tavla} in (6a) and (6b) respectively=
=20
<br>(whether or not it makes a difference). {fo} isn&#39;t tradionally=20
<br>considered a tag like all the others, so I assume it would be a=20
<br>&quot;constant&quot; tag. (6c) and (6d) should be the same.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>{na} is a selbri =
tag in all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {fi&#39;o ve tavla}, is a br=
idi operator.</div><div>Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to=
 {naku} at the beginning of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole b=
ridi in every case.=A0</div>
<div>However, because of the problem shown in <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.=
org/tiki/scope+of+na" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of=
+na</a> , {na} is treated in the same way as the other bridi operators: the=
 earlier has wider scope. Then the four bridi are equivalent to the followi=
ng bridi:</div>
<div><br></div><div>(6a&#39;) bau lo jbobau naku zo&#39;u mi do zo&#39;e ta=
vla</div><div>(6b&#39;) fi&#39;o ve tavla lo jbobau naku zo&#39;u mi do zo&=
#39;e tavla</div><div>(6c&#39;) naku zo&#39;u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo&#39;=
e tavla</div>
<div>(6d&#39;) naku zo&#39;u mi do zo&#39;e lo jbobau tavla</div><div><br><=
/div><div>The scope of {na} seems different between ((6a&#39;),(6b&#39;)) a=
nd ((6c&#39;),(6d&#39;)).</div></blockquote><div>The &quot;standard idiom&q=
uot; that I see on IRC for those that even use {na} as selbri tcita anymore=
 is basically xorxes&#39; paragraph number 6.<br>
<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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