Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 14:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Tags and bridi operators
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Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 05:28:19 UTC+9, Latro a =E9crit :
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:53 PM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com <javascript:=
>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 02:35:14 UTC+9, selpa'i a =E9crit :
>>
>>> la .guskant. cu cusku di'e=20
>>> > I am confused. I agree that this http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**
>>> scope+of+na <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na>=20
>>> > is applied to all BAI tags, but do the following bridi have the same=
=20
>>> > scope of {na}, or only (6c) and (6d) have wider scope of {na}, though=
=20
>>> > the four bridi seemingly have the same meaning?=20
>>> >=20
>>> > (6a) bau lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla=20
>>> > (6b) fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla=20
>>> > (6c) fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e na tavla=20
>>> > (6d) mi do zo'e lo jbobau na tavla=20
>>>
>>> The scope of {na} is the same in all those; it only scopes over the=20
>>> selbri. If you placed {na ku} in front, then the negation would have=20
>>> scope over {bau} and {fi'o ve tavla} in (6a) and (6b) respectively=20
>>> (whether or not it makes a difference). {fo} isn't tradionally=20
>>> considered a tag like all the others, so I assume it would be a=20
>>> "constant" tag. (6c) and (6d) should be the same.=20
>>>
>>>
>>
>> {na} is a selbri tag in all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {fi'o ve=
=20
>> tavla}, is a bridi operator.
>> Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to {naku} at the=20
>> beginning of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole bridi in ever=
y=20
>> case.=20
>> However, because of the problem shown in=20
>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na , {na} is treated in the same way=
=20
>> as the other bridi operators: the earlier has wider scope. Then the four=
=20
>> bridi are equivalent to the following bridi:
>>
>> (6a') bau lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
>> (6b') fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
>> (6c') naku zo'u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e tavla
>> (6d') naku zo'u mi do zo'e lo jbobau tavla
>>
>> The scope of {na} seems different between ((6a'),(6b')) and ((6c'),(6d')=
).
>>
> The "standard idiom" that I see on IRC for those that even use {na} as=20
> selbri tcita anymore is basically xorxes' paragraph number 6.
>
>
Still unclear. How do you reformulate (6a) (6b) (6c) (6d) to a prenex form=
=20
according to the "standard idiom" on IRC?

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<br><br>Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 05:28:19 UTC+9, Latro a =E9crit&nbsp;:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left=
: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:53 PM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"nFyB6o5Vz=
UUJ">gusni...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br>Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 02:35:14 UTC+9,=
 selpa'i a =E9crit&nbsp;:<div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
la .guskant. cu cusku di'e
<br>&gt; I am confused. I agree that this <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/=
tiki/scope+of+na" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>sco<w=
br>pe+of+na</a>
<br>&gt; is applied to all BAI tags, but do the following bridi have the sa=
me
<br>&gt; scope of {na}, or only (6c) and (6d) have wider scope of {na}, tho=
ugh
<br>&gt; the four bridi seemingly have the same meaning?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; (6a) bau lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6b) fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau mi do zo'e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6c) fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e na tavla
<br>&gt; (6d) mi do zo'e lo jbobau na tavla
<br>
<br>The scope of {na} is the same in all those; it only scopes over the=20
<br>selbri. If you placed {na ku} in front, then the negation would have=20
<br>scope over {bau} and {fi'o ve tavla} in (6a) and (6b) respectively=20
<br>(whether or not it makes a difference). {fo} isn't tradionally=20
<br>considered a tag like all the others, so I assume it would be a=20
<br>"constant" tag. (6c) and (6d) should be the same.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>{na} is a selbri =
tag in all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {fi'o ve tavla}, is a bridi =
operator.</div><div>Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to {na=
ku} at the beginning of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole bridi=
 in every case.&nbsp;</div>
<div>However, because of the problem shown in <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.=
org/tiki/scope+of+na" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<wbr>sco=
pe+of+na</a> , {na} is treated in the same way as the other bridi operators=
: the earlier has wider scope. Then the four bridi are equivalent to the fo=
llowing bridi:</div>
<div><br></div><div>(6a') bau lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla</div><di=
v>(6b') fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla</div><div>(6c') =
naku zo'u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e tavla</div>
<div>(6d') naku zo'u mi do zo'e lo jbobau tavla</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
e scope of {na} seems different between ((6a'),(6b')) and ((6c'),(6d')).</d=
iv></blockquote><div>The "standard idiom" that I see on IRC for those that =
even use {na} as selbri tcita anymore is basically xorxes' paragraph number=
 6.<br>
<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Still unclear.=
 How do you reformulate (6a) (6b) (6c) (6d) to a&nbsp;prenex form according=
 to the "standard idiom" on IRC?</div>

<p></p>

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