Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 15:34:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Tags and bridi operators
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Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 06:46:03 UTC+9, selpa'i a =E9crit :
>
> la .guskant. cu cusku di'e=20
> > {na} is a selbri tag in all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {fi'o v=
e=20
> > tavla}, is a bridi operator.=20
> > Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to {naku} at the=20
> > beginning of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole bridi in=20
> > every case.=20
> > However, because of the problem shown in=20
> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na , {na} is treated in the same=20
> way=20
> > as the other bridi operators: the earlier has wider scope. Then the fou=
r=20
> > bridi are equivalent to the following bridi:=20
> >=20
> > (6a') bau lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla=20
> > (6b') fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla=20
> > (6c') naku zo'u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e tavla=20
> > (6d') naku zo'u mi do zo'e lo jbobau tavla=20
>
> Yes.=20
>
> > The scope of {na} seems different between ((6a'),(6b')) and=20
> ((6c'),(6d')).=20
>
> How exactly is it different? You mean because the language-tags in (6a')=
=20
> and (6b') have scope over {na}, but not in (6c') and (6d')? Yes, that's=
=20
> true, but that's because the former two use tags, and the latter two=20
> don't. The tags are the diffence, not {na} itself. {na} is under the=20
> scope of another operator in the first two. Or am I misunderstanding you?=
=20
>
>
OK, it's now clear, ki'e. It is shocking but interesting that (6b) and (6c)=
=20
have different scopes of {na}. In my view, the terms in prenex suggest=20
somehow what is the universe of discourse of the bridi. From this point of=
=20
view, (6b) and (6c) suggest different universes of discourse: (6b)=20
first restrict the universe of discourse to what is concerning the language=
=20
used, and then negate the bridi; on the other hand, (6c) does not suggests=
=20
anything related to the universe of discourse, and simply negates the bridi=
.

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<br><br>Le jeudi 23 mai 2013 06:46:03 UTC+9, selpa'i a =E9crit&nbsp;:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la .guskant. cu cusku di'e
<br>&gt; {na} is a selbri tag in all those, but it, as well as {bau} and {f=
i'o ve
<br>&gt; tavla}, is a bridi operator.
<br>&gt; Traditionally, the selbri tag {na} is equivalent to {naku} at the
<br>&gt; beginning of the sentence, then {na} scopes over the whole bridi i=
n
<br>&gt; every case.
<br>&gt; However, because of the problem shown in
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/scope+of+na" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<wbr>scope+of+na</a> , {na} is treated in the=
 same way
<br>&gt; as the other bridi operators: the earlier has wider scope. Then th=
e four
<br>&gt; bridi are equivalent to the following bridi:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; (6a') bau lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
<br>&gt; (6b') fi'o ve tavla lo jbobau naku zo'u mi do zo'e tavla
<br>&gt; (6c') naku zo'u fo lo jbobau fa mi do zo'e tavla
<br>&gt; (6d') naku zo'u mi do zo'e lo jbobau tavla
<br>
<br>Yes.
<br>
<br>&gt; The scope of {na} seems different between ((6a'),(6b')) and ((6c')=
,(6d')).
<br>
<br>How exactly is it different? You mean because the language-tags in (6a'=
)=20
<br>and (6b') have scope over {na}, but not in (6c') and (6d')? Yes, that's=
=20
<br>true, but that's because the former two use tags, and the latter two=20
<br>don't. The tags are the diffence, not {na} itself. {na} is under the=20
<br>scope of another operator in the first two. Or am I misunderstanding yo=
u?
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK, it's now clear, ki'e. It is shocki=
ng but interesting that (6b) and (6c) have different scopes of {na}. In my =
view, the terms in prenex suggest somehow what is the universe of discourse=
 of the bridi. From this point of view, (6b) and (6c) suggest different uni=
verses&nbsp;of discourse: (6b) first&nbsp;restrict the universe of discours=
e to&nbsp;what is concerning the language used, and then negate the bridi; =
on the other hand,&nbsp;(6c) does not suggests anything related to the univ=
erse of discourse, and simply negates the bridi.<br></div>

<p></p>

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