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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Tags and bridi operators
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 00:16:06 -0400
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 Content preview:  On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 02:39:43 selpa'i wrote: > We know
    that na(ku), quantifiers, connectives and tenses are bridi > operators, but
    what about non-tense tags? Some clearly are bridi > operators, for instance
    the causals: > > (1) mu'i lo nu mi tatpi kei mi na klama > "Because I'm tired,
    I don't go." > > (2) mi na klama mu'i lo nu mi tatpi > "It is not the case
    that: I go because I'm tired." > > Obviously, (1) and (2) have very different
    meanings. This happens > everytime the order of bridi operators is reversed.
    [...] 
 
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On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 02:39:43 selpa'i wrote:
> We know that na(ku), quantifiers, connectives and tenses are bridi
> operators, but what about non-tense tags? Some clearly are bridi
> operators, for instance the causals:
> 
>      (1) mu'i lo nu mi tatpi kei mi na klama
>          "Because I'm tired, I don't go."
> 
>      (2) mi na klama mu'i lo nu mi tatpi
>          "It is not the case that: I go because I'm tired."
> 
> Obviously, (1) and (2) have very different meanings. This happens
> everytime the order of bridi operators is reversed.

No they don't. They mean the same thing. If you said "naku" instead of "na" in 
both sentences, they would mean different things. "na" just before the selbri 
is equivalent to "naku" at the start of the bridi, unless there's more than 
one start of the bridi because of conjunctions.

> When using certain BAI, it's not so clear if they should be treated as
> bridi operators:
> 
>       (3a) mi na sanga bau lo lojbo
> 
>       (3b) bau lo lojbo mi na sanga
> 
> Do they mean the same? There are some cases where it is very useful for
> BAI to be operators, and this is also true for {fi'o} constructs.
> However, I see the following problem:

Again, they mean the same, but with "naku" they mean different things.

> Either we make every tag, no matter what selma'o it belongs to, a bridi
> operator, or we pick some that are operators and some that aren't
> depending on what is the most useful / easiest to use. The problem with
> the second option is that it is a bit annoying to have to memorize which
> tags are and which aren't bridi operators. On the other hand, the
> problem with the first option is that it would actually invalidate a lot
> of usage! For example, from The Little Prince:
> 
>       (4) do pu djuno noda fi'o fuzme mi
> 
> The intended meaning is (more or less) "It's my fault that you didn't
> know." However, if {fi'o fuzme} is treated like any other tag, then the
> scope is wrong and the sentence suddenly means "In the past, there was
> no thing such that: you know it because of me", which is backwards from
> the intended meaning.

This one I'm not sure of, as "da" is quantified but "mi" is not. I'd tend to 
side with xorxes.

> Even worse, one of the most useful constructs I've been using, and which
> I think xorxes came up with, is {tai ... ja'e ...}, but upon closer
> examination, it, too, seems to be wrongly scoped:
> 
>       (5a) mi tai tatpi ja'e lo nu mi na ka'e sanli
>            intended: "I'm so tired that I can't stand."
> 
> But the scope should look like this:
> 
>       (5a') mi [tai [tatpi ja'e lo nu mi na ka'e sanli]]
> 
> The bridi operators have scope over what's to their right. Thus, [tatpi
> ja'e lo nu mi na ka'e sanli] ends up filling tamsmi2:
> 
>       (5b) lo nu mi tatpi ja'e lo nu mi na ka'e sanli cu se tamsmi zo'e
>            "The event of me being tired with the outcome that I can't
> stand is like something."
> 
> While the intended expansion is more like:
> 
>       (5c) lo nu lo nu mi tatpi cu se tamsmi zo'e
> 	      cu se jalge lo nu mi na ka'e sanli
> 
> That is, {jalge} is supposed to be the "main" claim, not {tamsmi}...

"tai" in that sentence is a preposition without an object. Since it's not a 
tense marker, it's equivalent to "tai ku". Nothing could end up in place 2 of 
"tamsmi", as the preposition is "tai", not "setai".

Pierre
-- 
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

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