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Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 12:38:46 +0100
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Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
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On 27 May 2013 17:48, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:>
>> But what happens whether "la betsemes solvor" wants to marry "la
>> selpa'i tsani"? Oops. What should we do with them? Do we forbid them
>> to marry because the child's name violates the language naming rules?
>
>
> You'd have to call them something like {la broda me la .betsemes.
selpa'i}. It's very ugly, but because there is a way to make it work, it's
not broken, just inconvenient. Or so goes the argument.

In the Western academic tradition, citation is made with the source
author's surname, and the whole name is inverted in the bibliography so
that the surname comes first to be sorted. This practice would look like
{solvor co betsemes} with the current anti-tanru order of cmene ({solvor}
being the surname/modifier). Instead, we could be consistent with the
general head-final order of tanru and have the "first" name come after the
modifying surname(s):

lo mlatu ratcu
a rat which is related to a cat (e.g. caught or eaten by a cat)

la solvor betsemes
Betsemes who is related to Solvor (e.g. born to or raised by Solvor)

"First" names are "first" in the sense that they precede the other parts of
a person's name in certain natlangs. But it's surnames - also called "last"
names - which historically come before newly given names that are
historically "last/newest" names. In several Asian countries, the
historically-first "last" name comes first, and the historically-last
"first" name comes last. This is analogous to the biological nomenclature,
where the generic name precedes the specific name, such as "Giraffa
camelopardalis rothschildi". In a sense, "Giraffa" is a surname, shared by
different descendents of the genus. If we were to Lojbanize this composite
name, I wouldn't expect it to be inverted for no good reason. (And the fact
that certain components of such biological names are readily available as
non-cmevla (i.e. gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla) while others aren't, is another
argument for allowing the use of both word-types in a seamless manner.)
(FWIW, the order of surname is also somewhat related to endianness.
Wikipedia often uses the big-endian YMD format, again most common in
certain Asian countries, for easier sorting of dates in the table.)

Or perhaps we could radically change the default tanru order to
head-initial, which would be consistent with the right-branching NOI, GOI,
ME, NU, etc:

lo ratcu (->) mlatu (->) noi (->) me (->) lo ratcu (->) poi (->) co'e (->)
lo mlatu
la betsemes (->) solvor (->) noi (->) me (->) la betsemes (->) poi (->)
co'e (->) la solvor

Regarding the question of surname derivation:
To the extent that Lojban root words are each an algorithmic combination of
different words, I can imagine a Lojbanistan municipality accepting as a
child's surname an algorithmic combination of the parents' names. If
genomes can merge to produce a child into the physical world, why couldn't
phonemes merge to introduce them into the linguistic world?

mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On 27 May 2013 17:48, selpa&#39;i &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:seladwa@gmx.de">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt; wrote:&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; But what h=
appens whether &quot;la betsemes solvor&quot; wants to marry &quot;la<br>&g=
t;&gt; selpa&#39;i tsani&quot;? Oops. What should we do with them? Do we fo=
rbid them<br>
&gt;&gt; to marry because the child&#39;s name violates the language naming=
 rules?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; You&#39;d have to call them something like =
{la broda me la .betsemes. selpa&#39;i}. It&#39;s very ugly, but because th=
ere is a way to make it work, it&#39;s not broken, just inconvenient. Or so=
 goes the argument.<br>
<br>In the Western academic tradition, citation is made with the source=20
author&#39;s surname, and the whole name is inverted in the bibliography so=
=20
that the surname comes first to be sorted. This practice would look like
 {solvor co betsemes} with the current anti-tanru order of cmene ({solvor} =
being the surname/modifier). Instead, we could be consistent with the gener=
al head-final order of tanru and have the &quot;first&quot; name come after=
 the modifying surname(s):<br>
<br>lo mlatu ratcu<br>a rat which is related to a cat (e.g. caught or eaten=
 by a cat)<br><br>la solvor betsemes<br>Betsemes who is related to Solvor (=
e.g. born to or raised by Solvor)<br><br></div><div>&quot;First&quot; names=
 are &quot;first&quot; in the sense that they precede the other parts of a =
person&#39;s name in certain natlangs. But it&#39;s surnames - also called =
&quot;last&quot; names - which historically come before newly given names t=
hat are historically &quot;last/newest&quot; names. In several Asian countr=
ies, the historically-first &quot;last&quot; name comes first, and the hist=
orically-last &quot;first&quot; name comes last. This is analogous to the b=
iological nomenclature, where the generic name precedes the specific name, =
such as &quot;Giraffa camelopardalis rothschildi&quot;. In a sense, &quot;G=
iraffa&quot; is a surname, shared by different descendents of the genus. If=
 we were to Lojbanize this composite name, I wouldn&#39;t expect it to be i=
nverted for no good reason. (And the fact that certain components of such b=
iological names are readily available as non-cmevla (i.e. gismu, lujvo, fu&=
#39;ivla) while others aren&#39;t, is another argument for allowing the use=
 of both word-types in a seamless manner.) (FWIW, the order of surname is a=
lso somewhat related to endianness. Wikipedia often uses the big-endian YMD=
 format, again most common in certain Asian countries, for easier sorting o=
f dates in the table.)<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Or perhaps we could radically change the default =
tanru order to head-initial, which would be consistent with the right-branc=
hing NOI, GOI, ME, NU, etc:<br><br></div><div>lo ratcu (-&gt;) mlatu (-&gt;=
) noi (-&gt;) me (-&gt;) lo ratcu (-&gt;) poi (-&gt;) co&#39;e (-&gt;) lo m=
latu<br>
</div><div>la betsemes (-&gt;) solvor (-&gt;) noi (-&gt;) me (-&gt;) la bet=
semes (-&gt;) poi (-&gt;) co&#39;e (-&gt;) la solvor<br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>Regarding the question of surname derivation:<br></div><div>To the e=
xtent that Lojban root words are each an algorithmic combination of differe=
nt words, I can imagine a Lojbanistan municipality accepting as a child&#39=
;s surname an algorithmic combination of the parents&#39; names. If genomes=
 can merge to produce a child into the physical world, why couldn&#39;t pho=
nemes merge to introduce them into the linguistic world?<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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