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Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 15:25:57 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj3gpou-t-6wPOLP7TCXdGhVGU2z+H-z4g=yGJK8Yg2gEg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>wrot=
e:

> Betsemes wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> betsemes
>> solvor
>> camgusmis
>> xorxes
>>
>
> These are cmene
>
>
>  arxokuna
>> selpa'i
>> gleki
>> tsani
>>
>
> These are brivla used as "nicknames".  All sorts of words are used as
> nicknames in English, but they are not really "names".  Presumably no one
> would be given a nickname as their legal name, if Lojban were ever adopte=
d
> as a legal language.
>

I find this hard to reconcile. Why is .camgusmis., which we all know is not
Robin's given name, not a nickname, but tsani is? Is it simply because one
if a cmene and the other is only a cmevla?

What about the dog named Bear? Would calling him la cribe when speaking in
Lojban not be calling him by name, but by nickname? We have to call him
la.cribes. to call him by name?

It seems odd to me to allow the usage of such constructs as la tsani, la
gleki, etc., but disallow naming ourselves or others with them, and I don't
like it. The whole reason many jbopre call themselves with cmevla is
precisely because how outcast cmene are: must always be preceded /and/
followed by a glottal stop, must always end in a consonant, and may not
have meaning- although they may be reflective of words that do.

This whole cmevla->brivla push seems to me to be an effort to make cmene
less outcast, more useful. As for this naming convention thing, I'm staying
out of it.

Personally, I think that cmene are better for foreign names, like
la.par=EDs., but I like the idea of natively naming our own stuff with
cmevla. When speaking in Lojban, I like {la jbogu'e} better than
{la.lojbanistan.}, I like {la jbobau} better than {la.lojban.}, and so on.
It just feels more natural, which I know isn't much of an argument.

Also, all names were originally a description of the person in the language
of that people. All of them. Some still are, like in Japanese names and
other Asian tongues. Using cmene means divorcing names even further from
their meaning, and I don't like that idea at all.

Very few people today- that aren't Jewish- know that "Jonathan" is Jewish
for {lo se dunda be lo cevni}, and it's Lojbanization of {la.djanatyn.}
would be even worse off, because the meaning would be stripped. I'll grant
I don't know any people that would name their children {la cevyseldu'a},
but then again, I only know one jbopre with kids, and they're both girls.

My point is, I think that the meaning is important- and I realize that
calling myself .aionys. doesn't live up to that, being as it's a
meaningless Lojbanization of my online nickname. Honestly, my only reason
for keeping .aionys. is that I've had it for so long everyone knows me by
it, and I honestly have no idea what descriptive name I'd give myself
anyway, being the uncreative person I am, in contrast to la stela selckiku,
la selpa'i, la tsani, etc.

I mean, what would be the cmene for {la dansu kansa be lo labno}?

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, May 29, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Robert LeChevalier <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">Betseme=
s wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
&lt;snip&gt;<br><div>
betsemes<br>
solvor<br>
camgusmis<br>
xorxes<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br></div>
These are cmene<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
arxokuna<br>
selpa&#39;i<br>
gleki<br>
tsani<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
These are brivla used as &quot;nicknames&quot;. =A0All sorts of words are u=
sed as nicknames in English, but they are not really &quot;names&quot;. =A0=
Presumably no one would be given a nickname as their legal name, if Lojban =
were ever adopted as a legal language.<br clear=3D"all">
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I find this hard to=
 reconcile. Why is .camgusmis., which we all know is not Robin&#39;s given =
name, not a nickname, but tsani is? Is it simply because one if a cmene and=
 the other is only a cmevla?<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">What about the dog named Bear? Would c=
alling him la cribe when speaking in Lojban not be calling him by name, but=
 by nickname? We have to call him la.cribes. to call him by name?<br><br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It seems odd to me to allow the usage of s=
uch constructs as la tsani, la gleki, etc., but disallow naming ourselves o=
r others with them, and I don&#39;t like it. The whole reason many jbopre c=
all themselves with cmevla is precisely because how outcast cmene are: must=
 always be preceded /and/ followed by a glottal stop, must always end in a =
consonant, and may not have meaning- although they may be reflective of wor=
ds that do.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">This whole cmevla-&gt;brivla push seem=
s to me to be an effort to make cmene less outcast, more useful. As for thi=
s naming convention thing, I&#39;m staying out of it.<br><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra">
Personally, I think that cmene are better for foreign names, like la.par=ED=
s., but I like the idea of natively naming our own stuff with cmevla. When =
speaking in Lojban, I like {la jbogu&#39;e} better than {la.lojbanistan.}, =
I like {la jbobau} better than {la.lojban.}, and so on. It just feels more =
natural, which I know isn&#39;t much of an argument.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Also, all names were originally a desc=
ription of the person in the language of that people. All of them. Some sti=
ll are, like in Japanese names and other Asian tongues. Using cmene means d=
ivorcing names even further from their meaning, and I don&#39;t like that i=
dea at all.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Very few people today- that aren&#39;t=
 Jewish- know that &quot;Jonathan&quot; is Jewish for {lo se dunda be lo ce=
vni}, and it&#39;s Lojbanization of {la.djanatyn.} would be even worse off,=
 because the meaning would be stripped. I&#39;ll grant I don&#39;t know any=
 people that would name their children {la cevyseldu&#39;a}, but then again=
, I only know one jbopre with kids, and they&#39;re both girls.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">My point is, I think that the meaning =
is important- and I realize that calling myself .aionys. doesn&#39;t live u=
p to that, being as it&#39;s a meaningless Lojbanization of my online nickn=
ame. Honestly, my only reason for keeping .aionys. is that I&#39;ve had it =
for so long everyone knows me by it, and I honestly have no idea what descr=
iptive name I&#39;d give myself anyway, being the uncreative person I am, i=
n contrast to la stela selckiku, la selpa&#39;i, la tsani, etc.<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I mea=
n, what would be the cmene for {la dansu kansa be lo labno}?<br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>--<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;=
ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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