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Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 19:34:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] sumti intensionality [was: Mixing tenses on the
 beginners list]
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 Content preview:  Yes, Lojban has properties and sets, but it is not a clearcut
    second order language, since these things are treated as as objects for the
    most part (there are variables for predicates, but no special ones for properties,
    for example). The "as" situation seems to be just another case of "under
   conditions" for which there is at least one BAI (note, "treat him as a friend"
    uses another BAI; this is not a generic "as" solution). Lojban is also intenstional,
    since some of its sumtis' referents are properties and the like. But it is
    always the referents that count, even when they are the senses of something
    else (in which case, they may interact with the rest of the sentence in special
    ways, which are, however, not at all peculiar). [...] 
 
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Yes, Lojban has properties and sets, but it is not a clearcut second order =
language, since these things are treated as as objects for the most part (t=
here are variables for predicates, but no special ones for properties, for =
example).=A0 The "as" situation seems to be just another case of "under con=
ditions" for which there is at least one BAI (note, "treat him as a friend"=
 uses another BAI; this is not a generic "as" solution).=A0 Lojban is also =
intenstional, since some of its sumtis' referents are properties and the li=
ke. But it is always the referents that count, even when they are the sense=
s of something else (in which case, they may interact with the rest of the =
sentence in special ways, which are, however, not at all peculiar).=A0=20


________________________________
 From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:05 PM
Subject: [lojban] sumti intensionality [was: Mixing tenses on the beginners=
 list]
=20


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:31 PM, .iuROK. <yurock.tengo@gmail.com> wrote:

I think, {lo ca broda cu zmadu lo pu brode} does not say what you want to s=
ay.
>
>The
 point of sumti is that they represent some referents. For simplicity, I
 will use sumti that have exactly one referent each. Usually a sumti=20
reveals some information about its referent, so, using that information,
 the listener can correctly guess the referent of each sumti. For=20
example, {lo blabi ku} says that the referent is white. That=20
information, however, does not have a direct relation to the truth value
 of the main bridi, which the sumti is a part of. It does not matter how
 we refer, only what we refer to.
>
>Let's consider an example: {lo=20
pu verba ku ca ciska dei}. In {pu verba}, {pu} is a part of the selbri.=20
{lo pu verba ku} says that the referent was a child. It does not say=20
anything about the state the referent is at the time of the main bridi,=20
which is now. Maybe he is still a child, maybe not. So, {lo pu verba ku=20
ca ciska dei} does not say that a child writes the sentence. Actually, I
 wrote the sentence, so the writer is an adult; but some time ago he was
 a child, for sure.
>
There was a similar discussion=20
to this on IRC today. I expressed, like you have here that I thought=20
sumti were about referents, and do not have intrinsic structure that=20
affects how they relate to the outer bridi. The one apparent=20
counterexample I can see to this is {noi} (and {ne}, which is a=20
shorthand for {noi} anyway). But that is not actually a counterexample,=20
because the comment in a {noi} could be moved out of context,=20
maintaining all referents of zo'e/co'e/etc., and the same meaning (with=20
different emphasis) would ultimately be conveyed. {poi} (and {pe}),=20
meanwhile, is about referents, not intrinsic structure.


The discussion was about how to express concepts with "as", such as "I like=
 you as a friend" and "I respect you as a leader." Others expressed that th=
is is "I like You-As-Friend", that is, the "as" lives in the sumti,=20
similar to how it does in English. Some suggested a NOI for this; others su=
ggested a brivla with place structure something like "x1 is x2 as=20
considered in capacity x3 (ka)". All considered this to live at sumti level=
.

I
 expressed that I thought it lived at selbri level; in pseudo-English as
 before, "I like <where x2 is considered as a friend of x1> you".=20
Some disagreed that this even made sense; others agreed that it made=20
sense but was awkward, and I concede that the syntax I proposed for this
 purpose is actually rather cumbersome.

I claim that this is=20
awkward not because it is conceptually awkward, but because we lack good
 mechanisms for transforming selbri into new selbri in ad hoc yet=20
precise ways. Lojban was founded as a first order language, but with the
 introduction of ka it instantly became a second order language. In my=20
view it should be more open to second order constructs like this.


mi'e la latro'a mu'o

--=20
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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Yes, Lojban has prope=
rties and sets, but it is not a clearcut second order language, since these=
 things are treated as as objects for the most part (there are variables fo=
r predicates, but no special ones for properties, for example).&nbsp; The "=
as" situation seems to be just another case of "under conditions" for which=
 there is at least one BAI (note, "treat him as a friend" uses another BAI;=
 this is not a generic "as" solution).&nbsp; Lojban is also intenstional, s=
ince some of its sumtis' referents are properties and the like. But it is a=
lways the referents that count, even when they are the senses of something =
else (in which case, they may interact with the rest of the sentence in spe=
cial ways, which are, however, not at all peculiar).&nbsp; <br><div><span><=
br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new
 roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-famil=
y: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"=
ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ian Johnson &lt;blindbravado@gmail.com&g=
t;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegr=
oups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednes=
day, May 29, 2013 8:05 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject=
:</span></b> [lojban] sumti intensionality [was: Mixing tenses on the begin=
ners list]<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1235238004"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv1235238004gmail=
_extra"><div class=3D"yiv1235238004gmail_quote">On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 7:3=
1 PM, .iuROK. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:y=
urock.tengo@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:yurock.tengo@gmail.=
com">yurock.tengo@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv1235238004gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">I think, {l=
o ca broda cu zmadu lo pu brode} does not say what you want to say.<br><br>=
The
 point of sumti is that they represent some referents. For simplicity, I
 will use sumti that have exactly one referent each. Usually a sumti=20
reveals some information about its referent, so, using that information,
 the listener can correctly guess the referent of each sumti. For=20
example, {lo blabi ku} says that the referent is white. That=20
information, however, does not have a direct relation to the truth value
 of the main bridi, which the sumti is a part of. It does not matter how
 we refer, only what we refer to.<br><br>Let's consider an example: {lo=20
pu verba ku ca ciska dei}. In {pu verba}, {pu} is a part of the selbri.=20
{lo pu verba ku} says that the referent was a child. It does not say=20
anything about the state the referent is at the time of the main bridi,=20
which is now. Maybe he is still a child, maybe not. So, {lo pu verba ku=20
ca ciska dei} does not say that a child writes the sentence. Actually, I
 wrote the sentence, so the writer is an adult; but some time ago he was
 a child, for sure.<br></blockquote><div>There was a similar discussion=20
to this on IRC today. I expressed, like you have here that I thought=20
sumti were about referents, and do not have intrinsic structure that=20
affects how they relate to the outer bridi. The one apparent=20
counterexample I can see to this is {noi} (and {ne}, which is a=20
shorthand for {noi} anyway). But that is not actually a counterexample,=20
because the comment in a {noi} could be moved out of context,=20
maintaining all referents of zo'e/co'e/etc., and the same meaning (with=20
different emphasis) would ultimately be conveyed. {poi} (and {pe}),=20
meanwhile, is about referents, not intrinsic structure.<br><br></div><div>T=
he
 discussion was about how to express concepts with "as", such as "I like
 you as a friend" and "I respect you as a leader." Others expressed that
 this is "I like You-As-Friend", that is, the "as" lives in the sumti,=20
similar to how it does in English. Some suggested a NOI for this; others
 suggested a brivla with place structure something like "x1 is x2 as=20
considered in capacity x3 (ka)". All considered this to live at sumti level=
.<br><br>I
 expressed that I thought it lived at selbri level; in pseudo-English as
 before, "I like &lt;where x2 is considered as a friend of x1&gt; you".=20
Some disagreed that this even made sense; others agreed that it made=20
sense but was awkward, and I concede that the syntax I proposed for this
 purpose is actually rather cumbersome.<br><br>I claim that this is=20
awkward not because it is conceptually awkward, but because we lack good
 mechanisms for transforming selbri into new selbri in ad hoc yet=20
precise ways. Lojban was founded as a first order language, but with the
 introduction of ka it instantly became a second order language. In my=20
view it should be more open to second order constructs like this.<br><br></=
div><div>mi'e la latro'a mu'o<br></div></div></div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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