Received: from mail-we0-f186.google.com ([74.125.82.186]:40567) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ui1t7-0006v7-4s for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:35 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f186.google.com with SMTP id n5sf38870wev.13 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SQnbV9PiHPFV0koSGIuYDqT5+H0yCo02dgN12xFcQco=; b=XDUlwfLeNNtACB5wRSZVWLRz2JVSjnX0Hf5x2rvoLTxzcm7mxS085pyIgAllIntLAQ iruJtXpfIbDkhR1vGi3Fx+hE/Qi0QuhQNh7hL0t/bBadtmr5drQ6kIbmUPByWwqr1qAQ dpA98h4LJtetQ4FVaeSCSezxwzGC/yVWW1DbKb/pREbdSYz5+dZ+GW39JnI0RoGw3N66 6qDsA2Q8rduMR5VlFVnBDFbi43fhwTLjEz+lJG//rs5Cipg+5Mt3EdT80iPBk5tJ+Ih6 bLiHZOx0qJ16OrtRwLv+uxzbU1tI+80bNb2bJstzEnWC4KBK3UtY1/uxeu/TMFMSMwpl Ly1w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SQnbV9PiHPFV0koSGIuYDqT5+H0yCo02dgN12xFcQco=; b=ohABWS5L+oMmjgzVNTHcvlN0sY+4mldWalZU+05utaqf13QTt/3Gzci6e59+j56mxl 2fk/3avVU7+AZtsPILH0JrYLVIkZDF+d8AczCOfd15Y6VT2terUark9M+8YrtkfrTlgc /BMdy2Ay7nhOUC9Iokx82vhcbo2rbLgBnVwQGdKhW67bllCmV8uLk/yt9W/wapDNW6Rn kdssHmlCVTbPSrmZY/ctHwjVSiGqdV8gpLXElkCDRg9+56n9flUebOYY4snBHasoR8It mvzTG0dnYehooEs9sl+uGtcKi9w6IIB42+8cPq+Yv3VFAAo0Ux7Cpcbp5yUF2B3+HAKk 0j+w== X-Received: by 10.180.88.232 with SMTP id bj8mr748690wib.15.1369916597669; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.185.205 with SMTP id fe13ls238061wic.16.gmail; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.235.129 with SMTP id kg1mr771028bkb.7.1369916597304; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f174.google.com (mail-lb0-f174.google.com [209.85.217.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ev8si1804147bkc.1.2013.05.30.05.23.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.174; Received: by mail-lb0-f174.google.com with SMTP id u10so467508lbi.19 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.133.202 with SMTP id pe10mr3625200lbb.54.1369916596807; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.1.166 with HTTP; Thu, 30 May 2013 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:16 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b343302219e8904ddee90a1 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b343302219e8904ddee90a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna wrote: > On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > >> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:45 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >> >>> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote: >>>> > adjectives are NOI-clauses. >>>> > Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses. >>>> > Alternatively, both of them are tanru. >>>> >>>> A NOI clause is a relative clause. >>> >>> >>> Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives. >>> >> >> No. >> > > A cat which is black = black cat > "which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adjective. > I'm not sure what you mean by "fi'o- >>>> clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an >>>> adjective or >>>> adverb; >>> >>> >>> they are adverbs. >>> >> >> No. >> >> >>> those parts of speech, which are classes of single words, don't exist >>>> in Lojban. >>> >>> >>> All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception. >>> >> >> Lojban is not an SAE language. >> > > Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien and > not usable by SAE-speakers. > No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusable by speakers of SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese isn't SAE, and yet there are many English-natives who are perfectly capable of speaking it. > There is no syntactic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le >>>> blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the same >>>> part >>>> of speech. >>>> >>> >>> {le mlatu} is a noun. >>> >> >> *sumti >> >> >>> {mlatu} is a verb. >>> >> >> *selbri >> > > > The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer people > are willing to learn Lojban. > Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologies > for the same language. > The more you use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and cause them to make mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is *not* a noun, it is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is "argument". {broda} is not a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word". It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of banning, it's a matter of using an accurate term to describe a part of speech. "noun", "verb", "adjective", "adverb", etc., are not accurate words to describe *any* part of Lojban speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words that are. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b343302219e8904ddee90a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.= com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, = aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:= 45 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM U= TC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote:
> adjectives are NOI-clauses.
> Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses.
> Alternatively, both of them are tanru.

A NOI clause is a relative clause.

Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.

No.

A cat which is black =3D black cat

"which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adject= ive.
=A0
I'm not sure w= hat you mean by "fi'o-
clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an a= djective or=20
adverb;

they are adverbs.

No.
=A0
those parts of spe= ech, which are classes of single words, don't exist=20
in Lojban.

All SAE languages have= adverbs. Lojban is no exception.

Loj= ban is not an SAE language.

Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwi= se it's alien and not usable by SAE-speakers.
No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusa= ble by speakers of SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese= isn't SAE, and yet there are many English-natives who are perfectly ca= pable of speaking it.
=A0
<= /div>
There is no syntac= tic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le=20
blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi= " belong to the same part=20
of speech.

{le mlatu} is a noun.

*sumti
=A0
{mlatu} is a verb.

*selbri


The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer people = are willing to learn Lojban.
Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other term= inologies for the same language.

The = more you use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and cause the= m to make mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is not a = noun, it is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is "argument"= ;. {broda} is not a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word".
It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of ba= nning, it's a matter of using an accurate term to describe a part of sp= eech. "noun", "verb", "adjective", "adve= rb", etc., are not accurate words to describe any part of Lojba= n speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words that are.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e= 9;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(C= ome to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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