Received: from mail-yh0-f64.google.com ([209.85.213.64]:46768) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ui2bS-0007gX-1v for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:09:29 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f64.google.com with SMTP id b20sf49441yha.19 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:09:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=itJtfYUe89o8rrjq4uk6vBvUu7ZAiWhug6LNJn8c+yw=; b=KTpGk00DphkWN+CtWTXutzQ8ujzsLljTjHiRZzeobp9WGKD4hmITTQRAj14g/CGDIQ TxGBWDVy3xC3mjYOYe6OPMSU9i7uCA1BbFCmIffZIYbwcLnqh/3MfhpwR5Fg/1mf3Q8p afl+P/aDicLk274vIeBnWAk4o2eedc7D4/Day1D5G4y9M+/b+8r/Gle2nyF9lcrEfRgS j6HoAdU1vwoB3eaxaUzer2gzZmSUtRbuCqpRqvQf6gpP9PvTQhh41LPpGmJS5issPnAW UietYS+BOoa7tLNEvPvwFmj3a+lvU7zg5KY773obXXuz6vz36z5ZUSuWgPwCqvdTJoJ8 LvtA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=itJtfYUe89o8rrjq4uk6vBvUu7ZAiWhug6LNJn8c+yw=; b=LiDUSQt12APDW9riywdQg3DqvgWqp5t4sRuZuiGa3NglSXpdU9Yb3MFHnFZjccnlvt +orrIPp5LkhXKC82NWA+X5NcWfDYI1VxsRWdWaqq+2/s4E59C3IENRzNzSs0mwvlqsUv fw9X1ahRf7iqugIjtHwYZZk5qNHC8GLamrCG3iyCgeQF5wgvacagfUzCVHQXZ25dCu6d o2ogZSe8Pzt6DBp9oWMgoDAilBxHpv3J9pm+e8t+qFTl3UzjXHHF2KpVSYQ2EsfbpO4X f+jtgZsk4wheKBu9xQxcrRDW3mWHNNgVv28uq50uvD6RNYPpnJgACIqzh5nbGCRGpYv1 gW+Q== X-Received: by 10.50.39.84 with SMTP id n20mr2928199igk.13.1369919347618; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:09:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.66.212 with SMTP id h20ls4237616igt.44.canary; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:09:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.136.234 with SMTP id qd10mr2671128igb.12.1369919347193; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 06:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4850_14609657.1369919345594" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_4850_14609657.1369919345594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:23:16 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna > > wrote: > >> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >> >>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:45 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote: >>>>> > adjectives are NOI-clauses. >>>>> > Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses. >>>>> > Alternatively, both of them are tanru. >>>>> >>>>> A NOI clause is a relative clause. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives. >>>> >>> >>> No. >>> >> >> A cat which is black = black cat >> > > "which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adjective. > > >> I'm not sure what you mean by "fi'o- >>>>> clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an >>>>> adjective or >>>>> adverb; >>>> >>>> >>>> they are adverbs. >>>> >>> >>> No. >>> >>> >>>> those parts of speech, which are classes of single words, don't exist >>>>> in Lojban. >>>> >>>> >>>> All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception. >>>> >>> >>> Lojban is not an SAE language. >>> >> >> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien and >> not usable by SAE-speakers. >> > > No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusable by speakers of > SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese isn't SAE, and yet > there are many English-natives who are perfectly capable of speaking it. > > >> There is no syntactic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le >>>>> blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the >>>>> same part >>>>> of speech. >>>>> >>>> >>>> {le mlatu} is a noun. >>>> >>> >>> *sumti >>> >>> >>>> {mlatu} is a verb. >>>> >>> >>> *selbri >>> >> >> >> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer people >> are willing to learn Lojban. >> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologies >> for the same language. >> > > The more you use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and > cause them to make mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is * > not* a noun, it is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is > "argument". {broda} is not a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word". > > It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of banning, it's a matter > of using an accurate term to describe a part of speech. "noun", "verb", > "adjective", "adverb", etc., are not accurate words to describe *any*part of Lojban speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words that are. > co'a xajmi I've monitored chat logs and I can see many people STILL making mistakes even when using this "correct" terminology. Not counting numerous other people who just stopped reading lojbanic grammar because of these strange terms. It looks like you need to love Lojban before knowing anything about it because it's textbooks are terrible. So I can see no advantages of using alien terminology. > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_4850_14609657.1369919345594 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:23:16 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna <= ;gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, = aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:= 45 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM U= TC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote:
> adjectives are NOI-clauses.
> Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses.
> Alternatively, both of them are tanru.

A NOI clause is a relative clause.

Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.

No.

A cat which is black =3D black cat

"which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adjective.
 
I'm not sure what = you mean by "fi'o-
clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an adject= ive or=20
adverb;

they are adverbs.

No.
 
those parts of spe= ech, which are classes of single words, don't exist=20
in Lojban.

All SAE languages have= adverbs. Lojban is no exception.

Loj= ban is not an SAE language.

Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwi= se it's alien and not usable by SAE-speakers.

No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusable by speak= ers of SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese isn't SAE, and = yet there are many English-natives who are perfectly capable of speaking it= .
 
There is no syntac= tic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le=20
blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the same= part=20
of speech.

{le mlatu} is a noun.

*sumti
 
{mlatu} is a verb.

*selbri


The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer people = are willing to learn Lojban.
Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologie= s for the same language.

The more you= use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and cause them to mak= e mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is not a noun, it= is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is "argument". {broda} is not = a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word".

It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of banning, i= t's a matter of using an accurate term to describe a part of speech. "noun"= , "verb", "adjective", "adverb", etc., are not accurate words to describe <= i>any part of Lojban speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words = that are.

co'a = xajmi

I've monitored chat logs and I can see many = people STILL making mistakes even when using this "correct" terminology.
Not counting numerous other people who just stopped reading lojbani= c grammar because of these strange terms.
It looks like you need = to love Lojban before knowing anything about it because it's textbooks are = terrible.

So I can see no advantages of using alie= n terminology.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cm= ima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot S= ide! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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