Received: from mail-lb0-f183.google.com ([209.85.217.183]:61140) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ui2ox-0007vX-Mk for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:20 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f183.google.com with SMTP id w20sf152595lbh.20 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VzLUFkrfZnRNDtc9SmIZKNWhEDT+Krrzv8UJlMY9bds=; b=rm9FU3ypzx4so2LZUTbMtmRAKwIMggeMEr0uEtnnMqDrcQsJJv2qU5pGeu/ZQvWYml ErNDIoj6hzLaaqwi5T7GtFTWPzilmcmeGdjb94QyOE7gJKtURRAxfb/XWOQ0ILfqDYsl OdBWrJaUlVy7M74Ei3TFM0lU+W6MLBzjaKXGNpHjKs1Rqd1NgplLPRYwkUzrkD5kTCvG kgl+vz/avMTvq2Q/CXU02HSBUfMWXx5OWJbWsbP4lTL3ZkC5M91gadXhdjEaTm/B3YIQ sndcHuQi5SXmCD6yOGt+ULcqEWffJeaq+NoiaUliSo9a2syfeC8vuGiOdAsNtrMGjyui RziA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VzLUFkrfZnRNDtc9SmIZKNWhEDT+Krrzv8UJlMY9bds=; b=prb+Lrfa1fbgk8/y4eyKhK9navmohxOpKMqGT/zxNc8KAPYEjUSBPFMbre3PzqX/VK FW3kJ44JQzpUU3tnnWo/Hpkv0doHvk5Mq+j84QHRHry0nCrnd8dStGRxZXtDt/j9LAAp ekr1IchjLEnvg9HsYPWqLHqUtJRjZmsBCngCO0JU+DvJefHT6LjAPNxyl+r70PZejkAe vTz1HLZLBd9ISZLnmpjL5c3iX7hIIHFwvVRWcpFo3wEePYgpztaT/d2JivRx3qzYKnS/ NBU+zLkqsnRjiMJqL0FoMDHSyIqR7PHqX7JyZlV8NXf5nrxg4az3bxR3dV6wB1jUJyK6 l0Dw== X-Received: by 10.180.189.72 with SMTP id gg8mr771085wic.1.1369920184281; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.72.211 with SMTP id f19ls1922788wiv.6.canary; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.205.25.135 with SMTP id ri7mr812962bkb.0.1369920183918; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22c.google.com (mail-la0-x22c.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9si3431025bki.2.2013.05.30.06.23.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c; Received: by mail-la0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id ek20so238545lab.31 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.210.101 with SMTP id mt5mr3756277lbc.85.1369920183657; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.1.166 with HTTP; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:23:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 07:23:03 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3bbc8eae9ec04ddef65b9 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c3bbc8eae9ec04ddef65b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 7:09 AM, la arxokuna wrote: > On Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:23:16 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > >> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >> >>> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:45 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote: >>>>>> > adjectives are NOI-clauses. >>>>>> > Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses. >>>>>> > Alternatively, both of them are tanru. >>>>>> >>>>>> A NOI clause is a relative clause. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives. >>>>> >>>> >>>> No. >>>> >>> >>> A cat which is black = black cat >>> >> >> "which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adjective. >> >> >>> I'm not sure what you mean by "fi'o- >>>>>> clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an >>>>>> adjective or >>>>>> adverb; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> they are adverbs. >>>>> >>>> >>>> No. >>>> >>>> >>>>> those parts of speech, which are classes of single words, don't exist >>>>>> in Lojban. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Lojban is not an SAE language. >>>> >>> >>> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien and >>> not usable by SAE-speakers. >>> >> >> No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusable by speakers of >> SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese isn't SAE, and yet >> there are many English-natives who are perfectly capable of speaking it. >> >> >>> There is no syntactic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le >>>>>> blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the >>>>>> same part >>>>>> of speech. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> {le mlatu} is a noun. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *sumti >>>> >>>> >>>>> {mlatu} is a verb. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *selbri >>>> >>> >>> >>> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer >>> people are willing to learn Lojban. >>> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologies >>> for the same language. >>> >> >> The more you use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and >> cause them to make mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is * >> not* a noun, it is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is >> "argument". {broda} is not a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word". >> >> It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of banning, it's a matter >> of using an accurate term to describe a part of speech. "noun", "verb", >> "adjective", "adverb", etc., are not accurate words to describe *any*part of Lojban speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words that are. >> > > co'a xajmi > > I've monitored chat logs and I can see many people STILL making mistakes > even when using this "correct" terminology. > Not counting numerous other people who just stopped reading lojbanic > grammar because of these strange terms. > It looks like you need to love Lojban before knowing anything about it > because it's textbooks are terrible. > > So I can see no advantages of using alien terminology. > Firstly, replace "alien" with "correct". Secondly, people are going to make mistakes regardless of the terms used when learning, obviously. The key is that thinking of something which *is not* a noun as a noun will lead to more kinds, and more egregious forms, of mistakes. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c3bbc8eae9ec04ddef65b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 7:09 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:23:16 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna <gleki= .is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, = aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:= 45 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM U= TC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote:
> adjectives are NOI-clauses.
> Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses.
> Alternatively, both of them are tanru.

A NOI clause is a relative clause.

Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.

No.

A cat which is black =3D black cat

"which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adject= ive.
=A0
I'm not sure w= hat you mean by "fi'o-
clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an a= djective or=20
adverb;

they are adverbs.

No.
=A0
those parts of spe= ech, which are classes of single words, don't exist=20
in Lojban.

All SAE languages have= adverbs. Lojban is no exception.

Loj= ban is not an SAE language.

Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwi= se it's alien and not usable by SAE-speakers.
No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusa= ble by speakers of SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese= isn't SAE, and yet there are many English-natives who are perfectly ca= pable of speaking it.
=A0
There is no syntac= tic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le=20
blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi= " belong to the same part=20
of speech.

{le mlatu} is a noun.

*sumti
=A0
{mlatu} is a verb.

*selbri


The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer people = are willing to learn Lojban.
Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other term= inologies for the same language.

The = more you use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and cause the= m to make mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is not a = noun, it is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is "argument"= ;. {broda} is not a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word".
It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of ba= nning, it's a matter of using an accurate term to describe a part of sp= eech. "noun", "verb", "adjective", "adve= rb", etc., are not accurate words to describe any part of Lojba= n speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words that are.

co'= ;a xajmi

I've monitored chat logs and I can se= e many people STILL making mistakes even when using this "correct"= ; terminology.
Not counting numerous other people who just stopped reading lojbanic g= rammar because of these strange terms.
It looks like you need to = love Lojban before knowing anything about it because it's textbooks are= terrible.

So I can see no advantages of using alien terminology.<= /div>

Firstly, replace "alien" with "co= rrect". Secondly, people are going to make mistakes regardless of the = terms used when learning, obviously. The key is that thinking of something = which is not a noun as a noun will lead to more kinds, and more egre= gious forms, of mistakes.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko c= mima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the = Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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