Received: from mail-vc0-f187.google.com ([209.85.220.187]:48763) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ui2x7-00086c-8d for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:31:49 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f187.google.com with SMTP id gf11sf86827vcb.24 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:31:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=f5M/YqIxwNAilf65MIlvLe0CTFKBUMNQsFDHBxPw8QM=; b=AhKZUKo1PETHC5xZlL2FYjPLB2uYMEo9yNS9sbl3TAGJF8BEsvW3xjQQKyNJBBb3V9 c/MFM4XygrM180W28LEGhsrH61yBpqODiLC8+03osrAUVWc29ZpBho1L0CeI5PSncIk0 EEWc8r4E3zNhn4LiMglyvB3CUwtI0LSDyydXNG9lI6xXEn5KoPnMS0XDXA0+m/Y3401m n8mrbZiTPVjMFbxgAKj/Fj5jc4RHB7bE3epo9YKmGZdR0U7GHU2N7rF+wYzrhjQhamzz Y5bIBI1A+AlGmmw/TObzpcCu4+jcYoanwzuu0Xa9KOMe08xC3EYgPiEDc1zjpFyHK+BY nE+g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=f5M/YqIxwNAilf65MIlvLe0CTFKBUMNQsFDHBxPw8QM=; b=LrDKVx/ZqdDVgWN1H98IPebkP/atLqrG1G6JneNzYRvQfJm+gLOkwGY2dY2XEdgkTY y8v3q3oAQPJr/r4Ym4g0Vksipl1YvoVjWLx0t3GMPzdNv+pu7nucodimgNOYFa2H7IaA vmAWpMUs7CDJWmSeCjv7WNxBsnHWi8jlpXrYSxS3P53XBd7JPKBM/hPfJWuMqpDAcf8F WgNtMQVHag2pt1eOS8kow9f2yCmvpJpxDiwqqEHmvHrR6+FinEPwdB52fpvppH6iKI1I DKVU4MaLfIqaX/w8qhoValLO3PL4rB0WnCuQXKtix6PyqoN7lEfkAt8GRVPK2Esjy/80 +khw== X-Received: by 10.49.87.70 with SMTP id v6mr578306qez.25.1369920690803; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:31:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.60.231 with SMTP id k7ls433469qer.22.gmail; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.131.9 with SMTP id oi9mr412002qeb.1.1369920689848; Thu, 30 May 2013 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_79_26844105.1369920689628" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_79_26844105.1369920689628 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:23:03 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 7:09 AM, la arxokuna > > wrote: > >> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:23:16 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >> >>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:45 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote: >>>>>>> > adjectives are NOI-clauses. >>>>>>> > Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses. >>>>>>> > Alternatively, both of them are tanru. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A NOI clause is a relative clause. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No. >>>>> >>>> >>>> A cat which is black = black cat >>>> >>> >>> "which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adjective. >>> >>> >>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "fi'o- >>>>>>> clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an >>>>>>> adjective or >>>>>>> adverb; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> they are adverbs. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> those parts of speech, which are classes of single words, don't >>>>>>> exist >>>>>>> in Lojban. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Lojban is not an SAE language. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien and >>>> not usable by SAE-speakers. >>>> >>> >>> No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusable by speakers of >>> SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese isn't SAE, and yet >>> there are many English-natives who are perfectly capable of speaking it. >>> >>> >>>> There is no syntactic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le >>>>>>> blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the >>>>>>> same part >>>>>>> of speech. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> {le mlatu} is a noun. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *sumti >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> {mlatu} is a verb. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *selbri >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer >>>> people are willing to learn Lojban. >>>> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologies >>>> for the same language. >>>> >>> >>> The more you use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and >>> cause them to make mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is * >>> not* a noun, it is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is >>> "argument". {broda} is not a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word". >>> >>> It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of banning, it's a matter >>> of using an accurate term to describe a part of speech. "noun", "verb", >>> "adjective", "adverb", etc., are not accurate words to describe *any*part of Lojban speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words that are. >>> >> >> co'a xajmi >> >> I've monitored chat logs and I can see many people STILL making mistakes >> even when using this "correct" terminology. >> Not counting numerous other people who just stopped reading lojbanic >> grammar because of these strange terms. >> It looks like you need to love Lojban before knowing anything about it >> because it's textbooks are terrible. >> >> So I can see no advantages of using alien terminology. >> > > Firstly, replace "alien" with "correct". Secondly, people are going to > make mistakes regardless of the terms used when learning, obviously. The > key is that thinking of something which *is not* a noun as a noun will > lead to more kinds, and more egregious forms, of mistakes. > This can't be proved until people are taught otherwise. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_79_26844105.1369920689628 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:23:03 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 3= 0, 2013 at 7:09 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gma= il.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:23:16 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:12 AM, la arxokuna <gleki= .is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:10:18 PM UTC+4, = aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:= 45 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM U= TC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 22:12:25 la arxokuna wrote:
> adjectives are NOI-clauses.
> Adverbs are sei-clauses or fi'o-clauses.
> Alternatively, both of them are tanru.

A NOI clause is a relative clause.

Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.

No.

A cat which is black =3D black cat

"which is black" is not a adjective. A phrase is not an adjective.
 
I'm not sure what = you mean by "fi'o-
clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an adject= ive or=20
adverb;

they are adverbs.

No.
 
those parts of spe= ech, which are classes of single words, don't exist=20
in Lojban.

All SAE languages have= adverbs. Lojban is no exception.

Loj= ban is not an SAE language.

Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwi= se it's alien and not usable by SAE-speakers.

No, Lojban mustn't do anything. And no, it's not unusable by speak= ers of SAE languages if it doesn't conform to SAE. Japanese isn't SAE, and = yet there are many English-natives who are perfectly capable of speaking it= .
 
There is no syntac= tic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le=20
blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the same= part=20
of speech.

{le mlatu} is a noun.

*sumti
 
{mlatu} is a verb.

*selbri


The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer people = are willing to learn Lojban.
Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologie= s for the same language.

The more you= use incorrect terms the more you will confuse people and cause them to mak= e mistakes based on faulty assumptions. {LO broda} is not a noun, it= is a sumti. The English equivalent of sumti is "argument". {broda} is not = a verb, it is a selbri: "relationship word".

It's not a matter of choice, it's not a matter of banning, i= t's a matter of using an accurate term to describe a part of speech. "noun"= , "verb", "adjective", "adverb", etc., are not accurate words to describe <= i>any part of Lojban speech, and it's certainly not crazy to use words = that are.

co'a x= ajmi

I've monitored chat logs and I can see many p= eople STILL making mistakes even when using this "correct" terminology.
Not counting numerous other people who just stopped reading lojbanic g= rammar because of these strange terms.
It looks like you need to = love Lojban before knowing anything about it because it's textbooks are ter= rible.

So I can see no advantages of using alien terminology.<= /div>

Firstly, replace "alien" with "correct". Secondl= y, people are going to make mistakes regardless of the terms used when lear= ning, obviously. The key is that thinking of something which is not = a noun as a noun will lead to more kinds, and more egregious forms, of mist= akes.

This ca= n't be proved until people are taught otherwise.
 

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, = I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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