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Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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Remember please that SAE is a metaphysical, not a purely linguistic categor=
y, it is, like sex, about plugs and sockets, not about nouns and verbs.=A0 =
Metaphysically, Lojban is SAE (more so than, say, German even).=A0=20

Much as I dislike Lojban terminology as a rule, it does have its points whe=
n compared to popular terminology (official linguistics stuff is marginally=
 better).=A0=20


________________________________
 From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
=20

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 02:45:45 la arxokuna wrote:
> On Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> > A NOI clause is a relative clause.
>=20
> Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.

No they're not. No single word is a relative clause. The class of adjective=
s=20
is a part of speech; the class of relative clauses is not. A part of speech=
 is=20
a class of words, not phrases. (WP says "or more precisely lexical items";=
=20
this includes phrases like "action-packed" which are not the sum of their=
=20
parts.)

> > I'm not sure what you mean by "fi'o-
> > clauses"; I think you mean a prepositional phrase. Neither is an adject=
ive
> > or
> > adverb;
>=20
> they are adverbs.

*What* are adverbs? "fi'o <brivla> be <sumti> fe'u" is grammatical, but I'm=
 not=20
sure that makes it a clause, as it has to have "be" if there is a sumti=20
attached. "<preposition> <sumti>" is definitely not a clause, as it doesn't=
=20
have to contain a brivla, let alone a whole bridi. Neither is a part of=20
speech, as neither class contains any single words.

> > those parts of speech, which are classes of single words, don't exist
> > in Lojban.
>=20
> All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception.

Lojban is not SAE. German is SAE, but some argue that it doesn't have adver=
bs,=20
since it doesn't use anything like "-ly" to make them from adjectives; thus=
=20
the equivalent of an adverb is just an adjective used in a certain way.

> > There is no syntactic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le
> > blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the same
> > part
> > of speech.
>=20
> {le mlatu} is a noun.
> {mlatu} is a verb.

"le mlatu" is an article phrase (the equivalent of a noun phrase, but not a=
=20
noun). "bidgug" is a noun. Maybe "bercribe" is both a noun and a verb, as "=
la=20
bercribe" means something completely different from "lo bercribe".

Pierre
--=20
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

--=20
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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Remember please that =
SAE is a metaphysical, not a purely linguistic category, it is, like sex, a=
bout plugs and sockets, not about nouns and verbs.&nbsp; Metaphysically, Lo=
jban is SAE (more so than, say, German even).&nbsp; <br><div><span>Much as =
I dislike Lojban terminology as a rule, it does have its points when compar=
ed to popular terminology (official linguistics stuff is marginally better)=
.&nbsp; <br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times =
new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-fa=
mily: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=
=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=
=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Pierre Abbat &lt;phma@bezitopo.org&=
gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googleg=
roups.com
 <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, May =
30, 2013 8:20 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span><=
/b> Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla<br> </font> </div> <div class=
=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
On Thursday, May 30, 2013 02:45:45 la arxokuna wrote:<br>&gt; On Thursday, =
May 30, 2013 11:07:11 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; A NOI clau=
se is a relative clause.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Yes, and relative clauses are adj=
ectives.<br><br>No they're not. No single word is a relative clause. The cl=
ass of adjectives <br>is a part of speech; the class of relative clauses is=
 not. A part of speech is <br>a class of words, not phrases. (WP says "or m=
ore precisely lexical items"; <br>this includes phrases like "action-packed=
" which are not the sum of their <br>parts.)<br><br>&gt; &gt; I'm not sure =
what you mean by "fi'o-<br>&gt; &gt; clauses"; I think you mean a prepositi=
onal phrase. Neither is an adjective<br>&gt; &gt; or<br>&gt; &gt; adverb;<b=
r>&gt; <br>&gt; they are adverbs.<br><br>*What* are adverbs? "fi'o &lt;briv=
la&gt; be &lt;sumti&gt; fe'u" is grammatical, but I'm not <br>sure that mak=
es it a clause, as it has to have "be" if there is a sumti
 <br>attached. "&lt;preposition&gt; &lt;sumti&gt;" is definitely not a clau=
se, as it doesn't <br>have to contain a brivla, let alone a whole bridi. Ne=
ither is a part of <br>speech, as neither class contains any single words.<=
br><br>&gt; &gt; those parts of speech, which are classes of single words, =
don't exist<br>&gt; &gt; in Lojban.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; All SAE languages have=
 adverbs. Lojban is no exception.<br><br>Lojban is not SAE. German is SAE, =
but some argue that it doesn't have adverbs, <br>since it doesn't use anyth=
ing like "-ly" to make them from adjectives; thus <br>the equivalent of an =
adverb is just an adjective used in a certain way.<br><br>&gt; &gt; There i=
s no syntactic difference between "le mlatu cu blabi" and "le<br>&gt; &gt; =
blabi cu mlatu", indicating that "mlatu" and "blabi" belong to the same<br>=
&gt; &gt; part<br>&gt; &gt; of speech.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; {le mlatu} is a nou=
n.<br>&gt; {mlatu} is a verb.<br><br>"le mlatu" is an article phrase
 (the equivalent of a noun phrase, but not a <br>noun). "bidgug" is a noun.=
 Maybe "bercribe" is both a noun and a verb, as "la <br>bercribe" means som=
ething completely different from "lo bercribe".<br><br>Pierre<br>-- <br>Jew=
s use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.<br><br>-- =
<br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving ema=
ils from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googl=
egroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googl=
egroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mail=
to:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@=
googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group=
/lojban?hl=3Den.<br>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.googl=
e.com/groups/opt_out"
 target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br=
><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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