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Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 11:02:53 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] sumti intensionality [was: Mixing tenses on the
 beginners list]
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:34 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Yes, Lojban has properties and sets, but it is not a clearcut second order
> language, since these things are treated as as objects for the most part
> (there are variables for predicates, but no special ones for properties,
> for example).  The "as" situation seems to be just another case of "under
> conditions" for which there is at least one BAI (note, "treat him as a
> friend" uses another BAI; this is not a generic "as" solution).  Lojban is
> also intenstional, since some of its sumtis' referents are properties and
> the like. But it is always the referents that count, even when they are the
> senses of something else (in which case, they may interact with the rest of
> the sentence in special ways, which are, however, not at all peculiar).
>
It's a bit more delicate than "under conditions", because that is
essentially a bridi operator. This "as" issue involves a place
specifically. For example, "As a leader, I respect you" and "I respect you
as a leader" both make sense and are rather different, since the first
modifies the x1 and the second modifies the x2. This is quite different
from a bridi operator. However, thinking about it a bit more, I'm seeing
that some other tags do this too. For example {mi cliva lo ckule se ka'a lo
zdani}, with its expected meaning, in some sense attaches to both the x1
and x2, sort of rebuilding {mi klama lo zdani lo ckule} from scratch. But
"as" needs this specified in practical situations. Other tags, even though
they could have ambiguity ({mi cliva lo ckule se ka'a lo zdani} could mean
{mi cliva lo ckule noi klama lo zdani}), don't seem to have that problem.

You're right that abstractors are intensional, but that's a separate
matter; I was talking about intensionality of concrete sumti, such as
distinguishing between "You-As-Friend" and "You-As-Lover".

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, May 29, 2013 at 10:34 PM, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:times new roman,new york,times,serif">Yes, Lojban has properties and sets=
, but it is not a clearcut second order language, since these things are tr=
eated as as objects for the most part (there are variables for predicates, =
but no special ones for properties, for example).=A0 The &quot;as&quot; sit=
uation seems to be just another case of &quot;under conditions&quot; for wh=
ich there is at least one BAI (note, &quot;treat him as a friend&quot; uses=
 another BAI; this is not a generic &quot;as&quot; solution).=A0 Lojban is =
also intenstional, since some of its sumtis&#39; referents are properties a=
nd the like. But it is always the referents that count, even when they are =
the senses of something else (in which case, they may interact with the res=
t of the sentence in special ways, which are, however, not at all peculiar)=
.=A0 <br>
</div></div></blockquote><div>It&#39;s a bit more delicate than &quot;under=
 conditions&quot;, because that is essentially a bridi operator. This &quot=
;as&quot; issue involves a place specifically. For example, &quot;As a lead=
er, I respect you&quot; and &quot;I respect you as a leader&quot; both make=
 sense and are rather different, since the first modifies the x1 and the se=
cond modifies the x2. This is quite different from a bridi operator. Howeve=
r, thinking about it a bit more, I&#39;m seeing that some other tags do thi=
s too. For example {mi cliva lo ckule se ka&#39;a lo zdani}, with its expec=
ted meaning, in some sense attaches to both the x1 and x2, sort of rebuildi=
ng {mi klama lo zdani lo ckule} from scratch. But &quot;as&quot; needs this=
 specified in practical situations. Other tags, even though they could have=
 ambiguity ({mi cliva lo ckule se ka&#39;a lo zdani} could mean {mi cliva l=
o ckule noi klama lo zdani}), don&#39;t seem to have that problem.<br>
<br></div><div>You&#39;re right that abstractors are intensional, but that&=
#39;s a separate matter; I was talking about intensionality of concrete sum=
ti, such as distinguishing between &quot;You-As-Friend&quot; and &quot;You-=
As-Lover&quot;.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div><=
/div></div>

<p></p>

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