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Subject: Re: [lojban] sumti intensionality [was: Mixing tenses on the
 beginners list]
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From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 10:53:34 -0500
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 Content preview:  Ah, intentionality. I still think "under circumstances" works
    pretty well, or something closely related to it. "I respect you as a friend"
    seems to mean "I respect you when I consider your performance and potential
    in friendship" or some such thing, very different from my attitude toward
    you considered as an engineer, say. So maybe "considered as" is the short
    form wanted, modifying "respect", rather than "under condition", though conditions
    turn up in the considerations. [...] 
 
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Ah, intentionality. =20
I still think "under circumstances" works pretty well, or something closely=
 related to it.  "I respect you as a friend" seems to mean "I respect you w=
hen I consider your performance and potential in friendship" or some such t=
hing, very different from my attitude toward you considered as an engineer,=
 say.  So maybe "considered as" is the short form wanted, modifying "respec=
t", rather than "under condition", though conditions turn up in the conside=
rations.

Sent from my iPad

On May 30, 2013, at 10:02, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:34 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
> Yes, Lojban has properties and sets, but it is not a clearcut second orde=
r language, since these things are treated as as objects for the most part =
(there are variables for predicates, but no special ones for properties, fo=
r example).  The "as" situation seems to be just another case of "under con=
ditions" for which there is at least one BAI (note, "treat him as a friend"=
 uses another BAI; this is not a generic "as" solution).  Lojban is also in=
tenstional, since some of its sumtis' referents are properties and the like=
. But it is always the referents that count, even when they are the senses =
of something else (in which case, they may interact with the rest of the se=
ntence in special ways, which are, however, not at all peculiar). =20
> It's a bit more delicate than "under conditions", because that is essenti=
ally a bridi operator. This "as" issue involves a place specifically. For e=
xample, "As a leader, I respect you" and "I respect you as a leader" both m=
ake sense and are rather different, since the first modifies the x1 and the=
 second modifies the x2. This is quite different from a bridi operator. How=
ever, thinking about it a bit more, I'm seeing that some other tags do this=
 too. For example {mi cliva lo ckule se ka'a lo zdani}, with its expected m=
eaning, in some sense attaches to both the x1 and x2, sort of rebuilding {m=
i klama lo zdani lo ckule} from scratch. But "as" needs this specified in p=
ractical situations. Other tags, even though they could have ambiguity ({mi=
 cliva lo ckule se ka'a lo zdani} could mean {mi cliva lo ckule noi klama l=
o zdani}), don't seem to have that problem.
>=20
> You're right that abstractors are intensional, but that's a separate matt=
er; I was talking about intensionality of concrete sumti, such as distingui=
shing between "You-As-Friend" and "You-As-Lover".
>=20
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
> --=20
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> =20
> =20

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Ah, intentionality. &nbsp=
;</div><div>I still think "under circumstances" works pretty well, or somet=
hing closely related to it. &nbsp;"I respect you as a friend" seems to mean=
 "I respect you when I consider your performance and potential in friendshi=
p" or some such thing, very different from my attitude toward you considere=
d as an engineer, say. &nbsp;So maybe "considered as" is the short form wan=
ted, modifying "respect", rather than "under condition", though conditions =
turn up in the considerations.</div><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><b=
r>On May 30, 2013, at 10:02, Ian Johnson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado=
@gmail.com">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:34 PM, John E Clifford=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:times new roman,new york,times,serif">Yes, Lojban has properties and sets=
, but it is not a clearcut second order language, since these things are tr=
eated as as objects for the most part (there are variables for predicates, =
but no special ones for properties, for example).&nbsp; The "as" situation =
seems to be just another case of "under conditions" for which there is at l=
east one BAI (note, "treat him as a friend" uses another BAI; this is not a=
 generic "as" solution).&nbsp; Lojban is also intenstional, since some of i=
ts sumtis' referents are properties and the like. But it is always the refe=
rents that count, even when they are the senses of something else (in which=
 case, they may interact with the rest of the sentence in special ways, whi=
ch are, however, not at all peculiar).&nbsp; <br>
</div></div></blockquote><div>It's a bit more delicate than "under conditio=
ns", because that is essentially a bridi operator. This "as" issue involves=
 a place specifically. For example, "As a leader, I respect you" and "I res=
pect you as a leader" both make sense and are rather different, since the f=
irst modifies the x1 and the second modifies the x2. This is quite differen=
t from a bridi operator. However, thinking about it a bit more, I'm seeing =
that some other tags do this too. For example {mi cliva lo ckule se ka'a lo=
 zdani}, with its expected meaning, in some sense attaches to both the x1 a=
nd x2, sort of rebuilding {mi klama lo zdani lo ckule} from scratch. But "a=
s" needs this specified in practical situations. Other tags, even though th=
ey could have ambiguity ({mi cliva lo ckule se ka'a lo zdani} could mean {m=
i cliva lo ckule noi klama lo zdani}), don't seem to have that problem.<br>
<br></div><div>You're right that abstractors are intensional, but that's a =
separate matter; I was talking about intensionality of concrete sumti, such=
 as distinguishing between "You-As-Friend" and "You-As-Lover".<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>mi'e la latro'a mu'o<br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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