Received: from mail-ie0-f184.google.com ([209.85.223.184]:53619) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UiMdt-00081U-0i for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 31 May 2013 03:33:14 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f184.google.com with SMTP id f4sf384331iea.1 for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 03:32:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=03GzvsfSHSh9l6SN3newm/+bJHBLLlXqX0Sl0JFZGMI=; b=uN/KoEmNmCz3nv+EsaKwlidNJHMnMQCRqX+5uJlelm3Lqylg0alDrUoNHtCipkCbV3 GTiY4luM7QkE8dBggTi0a7HB0XhoDCMiSJxemuFvCTBsENKhyChuO0l94e879/WQAc4A BfjNonSdzrRXyTJexBAsZG8phMI7EQDlMxV7o8GvjPmFcVAioJh3lluhAwCv4lyRhVwW bHhDaZ6IP2O1q44SgOHaEV0JCwlMliBfCpaIADn74PAJRethLwcwYMSOXOHipo32MBSH FQI8CIW75gxZxrY0GvVxDWGFqSoHh0FYLxw1JiW4MxgDw4HmR4lTDX6AnOMycHvdJZGk JIHg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=03GzvsfSHSh9l6SN3newm/+bJHBLLlXqX0Sl0JFZGMI=; b=vidbZGSWYe+t6/o+oZ6yggENxgftRXz2NXzbfBGkfh98ZVWL5buffKqc0tML3qNanX 7/qIivqHO9HjrzkfNVhuPeK4YXkcD9hGSB48k67Eh/w7OKsDUBL7OSOGUFD2VGFS4XBH JekVSGX4rXOB5vQVqFsj57qfrIlQFV+V57fKvylvFEqkrd8NxdT79/bwoVoch7IdxPdY fJXTZEZQdCvebc9w1+xTo0AOb7ZFkcof7yfWz7PcmrUaPBcQWpxlepBCUYP2ZM76P0wx LQ+ZOoBDWb1ltixBIXGMnLAZmwpy4XsZzAqEP6oPTvQpEqyOitujJ7aMMBZnJAGTbPOA TtyA== X-Received: by 10.49.2.170 with SMTP id 10mr911992qev.38.1369996378281; Fri, 31 May 2013 03:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.119.1 with SMTP id kq1ls868504qeb.26.gmail; Fri, 31 May 2013 03:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.6.201 with SMTP id d9mr931802qea.12.1369996377706; Fri, 31 May 2013 03:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 03:32:57 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <8407ee5f-b2b5-4f37-b97a-f6ab106e54f8@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <51A87231.9010305@lojban.org> References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> <51A87231.9010305@lojban.org> Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_654_17200880.1369996377111" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_654_17200880.1369996377111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote: > > la arxokuna wrote:=20 > > Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > No.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > A cat which is black =3D black cat=20 > > Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as= =20 > is more evident if you try to reverse the identity. A black cat may=20 > also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a=20 > white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible=20 > relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness.= =20 > > I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri=20 > joi blabi=20 > > > All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Lojban is not an SAE language.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien and= =20 > > not usable by SAE-speakers.=20 > > Lojban is alien in several senses.=20 > > I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European=20 > It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually= =20 > apply to Lojban.=20 > > I did a part of it three weeks ago. I found an article by Haspelmath (whose works i rate very high) which even= =20 got into Wikipedia. I added notes in square brackets of whether each=20 feature is possible in Lojban but you can check it in your projects. Haspelmath (2001) lists further features characteristic of European=20 languages (but also found elsewhere): 1. verb-initial order in yes/no questions; [optionally possible in=20 Lojban] 2. comparative inflection of adjectives (e.g. English *bigger*); [option= ally=20 possible in Lojban] 3. conjunction *A, B and C*; [no, needs extra {ke ... ke'e} brackets for= =20 nesting, the default is "A and B and C"] 4. syncretism of comitative and instrumental cases= =20 (e.g. English *with my friends* vs. *with a knife*); [terrible polysemy,= =20 but comitative is vague enough to be used instead of instrumental, so ye= s,=20 possible] 5. suppletivism in *second* vs. *two*; [of course not, it's stupid and has mostly historical=20 explanations] 6. no distinction between alienable (e.g. legal property) and inalienabl= e (e.g.=20 body part) possession; [possible with {pe}] 7. no distinction between inclusive and exclusive first-person=20 plural pronouns ("we and you" vs."we and not you"); [not possible yet,= =20 always distinguishable, probably the definition ofSAE "we" should be "I= =20 and other people, optionally including the listener". {za'u mi} is a=20 possible solution although doubted by some] 8. no productive usage of reduplication;=20 [yes, not used] 9. topic and focus expressed=20 by intonation and word order; [possible with intonation; possible by wor= d=20 order, which is probably an universal] 10. word order subject=96verb=96object;=20 [yes, by default] 11. only one gerund , preference=20 for finite subordinate clauses; [well, one gerund is definitely possible= ] 12. specific "neither-nor" construction; [not very specific, a part of a= =20 neat conjunctive system in Lojban] 13. phrasal adverbs (e.g. English *already*, *still*, *not yet*); [can= =20 be seen as advebrs] 14. tendency towards replacement of past tense by=20 the perfect .~=20 [pragmatically possible, but only as a tendency in the community, not as= a=20 rule] =20 > We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and=20 > inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.=20 > > SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.=20 > > > *sumti=20 > >=20 > > {mlatu} is a verb.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > *selbri=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer=20 > > people are willing to learn Lojban.=20 > > But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,=20 > rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.=20 > > > Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologies= =20 > > for the same language.=20 > > If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does=20 > not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is=20 > used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology.=20 > > lojbab=20 > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_654_17200880.1369996377111 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
la arxokuna wrote:
>         Yes, and relative clauses are adjectiv= es.
>
>
>     No.
>
>
> A cat which is black =3D black cat

Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as= =20
is more evident if you try to reverse the identity.  A black cat m= ay=20
also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a= =20
white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible=20
relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness= .

I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri= =20
joi blabi

>         All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban= is no exception.
>
>
>     Lojban is not an SAE language.
>
>
> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alie= n and
> not usable by SAE-speakers.

Lojban is alien in several senses.

I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually= =20
apply to Lojban.




I found an article by Haspelmath (whose works i = rate very high) which even got into Wikipedia. I added notes in square brac= kets of whether each feature is possible in Lojban but you can check it in = your projects.

Haspelmath (2001) lists further features characteristic of European= languages (but also found elsewhere):
  1. verb-initial order in yes/no questions; [optionally possi= ble in Lojban]
  2. c= omparative inflection of adjectives (e.g. English bigger); = ;[optionally possible in Lojban]
  3. conjunction A, B and C; [no, needs extra {ke .= .. ke'e} brackets for nesting, the default is "A and B and C"]
  4. syncretism of instrumental case= s (e.g. English with my friends vs. with a knife); [terrible polysemy, but comitative is vague en= ough to be used instead of instrumental, so yes, possible]
  5. suppletivism in = ;second vs. two; [of course not, it's stupid a= nd has mostly historical explanations]
  6. no distinction between alienable (e.g. legal propert= y) and inalienable (e.g. body part) po= ssession; [possible with {pe}]
  7. no distinction between inclusive and exclusive fi= rst-person plural pronouns ("we and you" vs."we and not you"); [not possibl= e yet, always distinguishable, probably the definition ofSAE "we" shoul= d be "I and other people, optionally including the listener". {za'u mi} is = a possible solution although doubted by some]
  8. no productive usage of reduplicatio= n; [yes, not used]
  9. topic and focus expressed by intonation and word order; [possible with intonation; p= ossible by word order, which is probably an universal]
  10. word order subject=96verb=96object; [yes, by default]
  11. only one gerund, preferen= ce for finite subordinate clauses; [well, one gerund is definitely possible= ]
  12. specific "neit= her-nor" construction; [not very specific, a part of a neat conjunctive sys= tem in Lojban]
  13. p= hrasal adverbs (e.g. English already, still, <= i>not yet); [can be seen as advebrs]
  14. tendency towards replacement of past tense=  by the perfect.~ [pragmatically possible, but o= nly as a tendency in the community, not as a rule]

=

 
We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and=20
inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.

SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.

>     *sumti
>
>         {mlatu} is a verb.
>
>
>     *selbri
>
>
>
> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer
> people are willing to learn Lojban.

But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,=20
rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.

> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminol= ogies
> for the same language.

If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does= =20
not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is=20
used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology.

lojbab


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