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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 13:43:18 +0200
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla
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la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
> And as I see it, it is destroying the concept of Lojban as a
> logical-predicate language.  I don't see anything "useful" about
> treating a cmene as if it had a place structure, unless you are
> meaningfully going to use that place structure.

The currently proposed definitions give cmevla only a single place:

x1 me la CMEVLA

x1 me lo selcme be zo CMEVLA

x1 selcme zo CMEVLA

Maybe something could be done with cmene3, but it's probably safer to 
zi'o it out.

> If I saw people making use of place structures in their brivla names, I
> might be more sympathetic.  But they don't, and I suspect that
> absolutely no one thinks about the x2 of tsani when they use that as his
> name.

Indeed, no one does, because {la} removes the meaning from the brivla so 
that only the string of letters/sounds is relevant. The form may hint at 
the original meaning of the brivla, but I doubt anyone thinks of a sky 
when they refer to {la tsani}, they think of *him*.

I feel the same way about my own name. The name "selpa'i" is just a 
string of letters that I like the sound of. The meaning of the brivla is 
nice, but I would not claim that {mi selpa'i}, or in other words, I 
would not want people to infer {mi selpa'i} from {mi'e la selpa'i} or 
anything like that. And I wouldn't want to have to answer a question 
like "la selpa'i be ma". My name is not "selpa'i be <whatever>", it's 
"selpa'i".

la X == lo selcme be zo X

{zo X} means the *word* X, not its meaning.

The place structure completely disappears.

That's how I see it, and from what I can tell, that is how {la} is used 
by the majority of Lojbanists.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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