Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:55744) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UiOTV-0000Aj-RA for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:38 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f189.google.com with SMTP id u57sf267670wes.26 for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=y3N71PwpkhCwDdqtlzqG68YUMX3BGAp1HhKxEJukyN8=; b=ZwXQ0N4vLqV35fFXzkN1AStciL9OzwaBOMVkA8zjgdqkyRA99/ZpRDOJwGvHy40MEf yg54FAfwOtA4uNLCph61qrMdWWA7bkc9Ak3NuVmeJ/iLHg0T/o+6e4GYpnwIENaiDbV7 uJp4U+LUkQ0/9X/FGTr7mYUikyUh/5JqWhhImZYf24CRVZN8OHekG4+qcur/2DsWiHoT OpXjQqVfoXu+mvlIFguKXHNK6DGNrNRIeuauzd7wcevKCKNfTVX7tMqa1KRzGPpba0ds kVQIVFE+UG14dh0Z2hxjviF8Sw1MJncVe1ebmFimLv9V7W/4NR/sK5KSg16Wwu9BWdg3 CauQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=y3N71PwpkhCwDdqtlzqG68YUMX3BGAp1HhKxEJukyN8=; b=JVyGSc/8OXCDIsia3+oSk2tnUhlCaNhbun9PzekbJ8IWDOzLmCG+s8NdD08DLrS9eJ Bwph8OLlrIXflOyuGoBSbpSJ9EpOyaFir6RcJzQUsdijZ649ldqr75JzEtuizSvKcDF7 J4ujlmGTOFN9QZ3/JZMIwsQgSmqc0aqagmIBMXnzNQ8woOwHmQ4J/bV5e0bW23XRxdLc 3O/gVU/+ZVcJlJbD9A6pa0py56WXdiIqM55wbT7jXjXUX1dopwuIB4d0QcBuNENTqboy djjKu1KEH5+4ITZJQ3gnN7gq0oGgPNjfw0612GxQA6GyxiEyK8zk2l0gW++a9Gh94kx/ ZYqA== X-Received: by 10.180.10.2 with SMTP id e2mr240737wib.19.1370003422268; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.88.229 with SMTP id bj5ls211766wib.53.gmail; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.72.1 with SMTP id k1mr82401bkj.1.1370003421713; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22c.google.com (mail-la0-x22c.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9si3717605bki.2.2013.05.31.05.30.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c; Received: by mail-la0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id ek20so1315594lab.3 for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.189.99 with SMTP id gh3mr1669420lbc.2.1370003421428; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.1.166 with HTTP; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:30:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8407ee5f-b2b5-4f37-b97a-f6ab106e54f8@googlegroups.com> References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> <51A87231.9010305@lojban.org> <8407ee5f-b2b5-4f37-b97a-f6ab106e54f8@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 06:30:20 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c367d446804304de02c740 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c367d446804304de02c740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 4:32 AM, la arxokuna wr= ote: > On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote: >> >> la arxokuna wrote: >> > Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives. >> > >> > >> > No. >> > >> > >> > A cat which is black =3D black cat >> >> Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as >> is more evident if you try to reverse the identity. A black cat may >> also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a >> white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible >> relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness. >> >> I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri >> joi blabi >> >> > All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception. >> > >> > >> > Lojban is not an SAE language. >> > >> > >> > Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien an= d >> > not usable by SAE-speakers. >> >> Lojban is alien in several senses. >> >> I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Standard_Average_European >> It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually >> apply to Lojban. >> >> > > I did a part of it three weeks ago. > I'm going to get rid of all the ones that aren't actually a part of Lojban. This includes "optionally possible" ones, since by definition that means it isn't part of it. It's optionally possible for me to be physically a woman. > > 1. no productive usage of reduplication; > [yes, not used] > 2. word order subject=96verb=96object; > [yes, by default] > 3. specific "neither-nor" construction; [not very specific, a part of > a neat conjunctive system in Lojban] > > > > > >> We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and >> inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage. >> >> SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages. >> >> > *sumti >> > >> > {mlatu} is a verb. >> > >> > >> > *selbri >> > >> > >> > >> > The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer >> > people are willing to learn Lojban. >> >> But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban, >> rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban. >> >> > Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologie= s >> > for the same language. >> >> If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does >> not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is >> used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology. >> >> lojbab >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c367d446804304de02c740 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 4:32 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:la arxokuna wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.
>
>
> =A0 =A0 No.
>
>
> A cat which is black =3D black cat

Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as= =20
is more evident if you try to reverse the identity. =A0A black cat may= =20
also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a= =20
white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible=20
relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness= .

I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact = is xekri=20
joi blabi

> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no excep= tion.
>
>
> =A0 =A0 Lojban is not an SAE language.
>
>
> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's = alien and
> not usable by SAE-speakers.

Lojban is alien in several senses.

I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European=
It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually= =20
apply to Lojban.



I did a part of i= t three weeks ago.

I'm going to get rid of a= ll the ones that aren't actually a part of Lojban. This includes "= optionally possible" ones, since by definition that means it isn't= part of it. It's optionally possible for me to be physically a woman.<= br> =A0
  1. no productive usage of= =A0reduplication; [yes, not used]
  2. word order=A0subject=96verb=96object; [yes, by default]
  3. specific "neither-n= or" construction; [not very specific, a part of a neat conjunctive sys= tem in Lojban]


=A0
We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and=20
inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.

SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.

> =A0 =A0 *sumti
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 {mlatu} is a verb.
>
>
> =A0 =A0 *selbri
>
>
>
> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer
> people are willing to learn Lojban.

But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,=20
rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.

> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other = terminologies
> for the same language.

If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does= =20
not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is=20
used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that termin= ology.

lojbab


--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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