Received: from mail-ve0-f188.google.com ([209.85.128.188]:65030) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UiOlf-0000HV-MD for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:49:29 -0700 Received: by mail-ve0-f188.google.com with SMTP id oz10sf416917veb.25 for ; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:49:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VTdfe5QcRHKAyISje+4JPYY+2xtwmbqEW6BcLbzWXFM=; b=HWCAQLGJRtZetrjM4PBrvc3cnb5gJ1y+wfFky7ouPz5tOaiOIH+eNbDFF6E+8p0giW W9uwaH4pgquT1lyesWePXVTtj6TkZHsF6hzBZdbBKH+aPfgqEHHTRqeTtn+qOhUATLXI GJFRwb7iiF4juPf9UrWenEOcUbT0P/aZmCnQoP+2Ga2w1+aQb4w92l5NaKUK+JC4sNkD eie9q8sNwldE7RvpMRCyPiZQsM17p4ZBcxF8eyJRiVbi8RsIM94c/5MqqfgdNE1GbgDz SPw/in1MDtIkB+yXV6eRFv5ZnqJLcQH8kugJ6V7azbM+RdNBNFFlXTNZZGo7fp2+CilV pAwA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VTdfe5QcRHKAyISje+4JPYY+2xtwmbqEW6BcLbzWXFM=; b=Rb0bYArbI0+8UR1ay+w6kgvCYqEToIfRPUm8IOecaybRRJfjQYMNGQS8zXviOJVOhg wBVPzOMdIjrwRxQq0faqhOeN83U19wSWzm/6tNjgno9bQJAczTQwrpUQsyCbefMfFXnH sMfhYPQDvkTT29fTM9hcZ1a6NZccKWBDYEIKTXmAjicxUwbFJJpcT5D+iSTonZaD1mHQ sGgvyUwtb77gO0fDdewMOcYhd0GaBlN5xd8gavwxCU4oAVHYfpuE/8Ts1XflZzMWrM7k ov0x673ayZ3oeUUhRYPHWzNJUu8XOhPMcTQNI+nFJG8t38bz7OJuxmNarUP3LEgfM3Ip irpg== X-Received: by 10.49.2.228 with SMTP id 4mr924331qex.3.1370004548779; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:49:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.0.236 with SMTP id 12ls913526qeh.97.gmail; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:49:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.106.231 with SMTP id gx7mr942042qeb.6.1370004547649; Fri, 31 May 2013 05:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 05:49:07 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <2718750.fulPsy5vnL@caracal> <4edc5214-5273-49f9-9245-b1d47359777a@googlegroups.com> <2958463.tuZCQxhdY2@caracal> <959ec86e-9750-4503-9a2f-56dae1867658@googlegroups.com> <51A87231.9010305@lojban.org> <8407ee5f-b2b5-4f37-b97a-f6ab106e54f8@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_779_3359117.1370004547111" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_779_3359117.1370004547111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, May 31, 2013 4:30:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 4:32 AM, la arxokuna > > wrote: > >> On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote: >>> >>> la arxokuna wrote:=20 >>> > Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > No.=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > A cat which is black =3D black cat=20 >>> >>> Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as= =20 >>> is more evident if you try to reverse the identity. A black cat may=20 >>> also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a= =20 >>> white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible=20 >>> relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness= .=20 >>> >>> I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri= =20 >>> joi blabi=20 >>> >>> > All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception.=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > Lojban is not an SAE language.=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien= =20 >>> and=20 >>> > not usable by SAE-speakers.=20 >>> >>> Lojban is alien in several senses.=20 >>> >>> I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.= =20 >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Standard_Average_European=20 >>> It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually= =20 >>> apply to Lojban.=20 >>> >>> >> >> I did a part of it three weeks ago. >> > > I'm going to get rid of all the ones that aren't actually a part of=20 > Lojban. This includes "optionally possible" ones, since by definition tha= t=20 > means it isn't part of it. It's optionally possible for me to be physical= ly=20 > a woman. > =20 > >> >> 1. no productive usage of reduplication;=20 >> [yes, not used]=20 >> 2. word order subject=96verb=96object;=20 >> [yes, by default]=20 >> 3. specific "neither-nor" construction; [not very specific, a part of= =20 >> a neat conjunctive system in Lojban] >> >> Lojban is more than SAE. It is optionally mostly SAE. It can be optionally something else. I never said it is *only* SAE (otherwise Iwouldn't have ever learnt it). =20 > >> >> =20 >> >>> We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and=20 >>> inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.=20 >>> >>> SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.=20 >>> >>> > *sumti=20 >>> >=20 >>> > {mlatu} is a verb.=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > *selbri=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer=20 >>> > people are willing to learn Lojban.=20 >>> >>> But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,=20 >>> rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.=20 >>> >>> > Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other=20 >>> terminologies=20 >>> > for the same language.=20 >>> >>> If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does= =20 >>> not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is=20 >>> used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology.=20 >>> >>> lojbab=20 >>> >>> >>> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >> > > > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_779_3359117.1370004547111 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, May 31, 2013 4:30:20 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Fri, May 31,= 2013 at 4:32 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail= .com> wrote:
On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
la arxokuna wrote:
>         Yes, and relative clauses are adjectiv= es.
>
>
>     No.
>
>
> A cat which is black =3D black cat

Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as= =20
is more evident if you try to reverse the identity.  A black cat m= ay=20
also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a= =20
white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible=20
relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness= .

I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri= =20
joi blabi

>         All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban= is no exception.
>
>
>     Lojban is not an SAE language.
>
>
> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alie= n and
> not usable by SAE-speakers.

Lojban is alien in several senses.

I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_Eur= opean
It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually= =20
apply to Lojban.



I did a part of i= t three weeks ago.

I'm going to get rid of all t= he ones that aren't actually a part of Lojban. This includes "optionally po= ssible" ones, since by definition that means it isn't part of it. It's opti= onally possible for me to be physically a woman.
 
  1. no productive usage of&n= bsp;reduplication; [yes, not used]
  2. word order subject=96verb=96object; [yes, by default]
  3. specific "neither-nor" c= onstruction; [not very specific, a part of a neat conjunctive system in Loj= ban]

Loj= ban is more than SAE. It is optionally mostly SAE.
It can be opti= onally something else.
I never said it is *only* SAE (otherwise I= wouldn't have ever learnt it).

 


 
We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and=20
inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.

SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.

>     *sumti
>
>         {mlatu} is a verb.
>
>
>     *selbri
>
>
>
> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer
> people are willing to learn Lojban.

But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,=20
rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.

> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminol= ogies
> for the same language.

If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does= =20
not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is=20
used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology.

lojbab


--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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